8 ms·

We need a similar study for aggression against (road) cyclists too. I've never seen a sport provoke so much aggression from men.

soco 3y ago
Can't say much about the US, but around here I suppose if the cyclists would stick to the traffic regulations there would be somewhat less aggression against them.
- ljf 3y ago
  If you've ever been around cars (in a car, as a cyclist or as a pedestrian) and sat and watched them for any period - you'll see a huge number of traffic offenses committed by those in cars - mainly using phones, but also speeding, red light jumping, aggressive under and over-taking. But for some reason most people are blind to this and don't get aggressive with drivers. Why might that be?
  - marcandre 3y ago
    You forgot not signaling when turning and changing lanes...
    - wiredfool 3y ago
      And driving/parking on sidewalks/footpaths. In the last 2 years of riding bikes and walking the dog, my two closest calls with cars have been on the sidewalk during walkies.
  - trgn 3y ago
    Level of responsibility between driver and cyclist is categorically different. A driver will kill when inattentive or impatient. This disconnect between magnitude of input (slouched like a bag of potatoes, dozing) and magnitude of output (casually demolishing a building) is unnatural, it breaks the brain. It's easier to blame the weak, the system, the potholes.
  - yungporko 3y ago
    people aren't blind to this at all, being pissed off about it even has it's own name (road rage)
    - ljf 3y ago
      I'd argue it is different in that just seeing or talking about cyclists will often draw anger online and in person - most people don't feel the same way about cars or drivers. Getting angry when someone cuts you off is different to being angry about cyclists just existing.
      - yungporko 3y ago
        i guess that's because it's a chore and arguably dangerous to share the road with cyclists no matter what they're doing, and not only when they're ignoring the rules of the road personally i just cycle on footpaths, i'm not really interested in what the law says. me getting hit by a car is a much more dangerous and likely situation than me riding into a pedestrian, and police aren't going to abandon their car on the road to chase me on foot.
      - D13Fd 3y ago
        > being angry about cyclists just existing. I don't like some cyclists because of their blatant and unsafe disregard for the rules. It's not uncommon to see: - Cyclists ignoring red lights - Cyclists ignoring stop signs - Cyclists riding on a busy sidewalk - Cyclists yelling at pedestrians to move rather than stopping at an intersection as required - Cyclists taking up the entire lane and not permitting cars to pass - Cyclists going the wrong way down a one-way street Some of the worst offenders are e-bike users, who can move very fast and in unexpected ways. It's no fun to have someone silently fly by you from behind, inches away, at 20mph while they are riding what's basically a motorcycle on the sidewalk. I frequently walk in the city, and scooters/bicycles are far more of a hazard than cars. They often can't decide whether they want to be pedestrians or cars, and they often don't follow the rules for either, putting everyone (including themselves) at risk.
        tonyg 3y ago
  - scythe 3y ago
    >But for some reason most people are blind to this and don't get aggressive with drivers. I'm not sure if this is serious, but it's one of the more obviously false claims I've seen on Hacker News: https://everytownresearch.org/reports-of-road-rage-shootings-are-on-the-rise/ https://everytownresearch.org/reports-of-road-rage-shootings... >Experiencing aggressive driving on the road is not uncommon—roughly eight in 10 drivers surveyed by the AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety reported having at least one incident in the month before the survey. In response to your other comment: >angry about cyclists just existing. I don't think these people are angry at cyclists per se at all, they're angry about a perceived anti-car sociopolitical shift, and cyclists are just a visible artifact of that.
    - ljf 3y ago
      I can only assume that you are not a cyclist? I've just ridden down the road safely and legally and had people shout, swear and swerve their cars at me. Believe me, people ARE angry at cyclists - it might be for the reasons you suggest, but their anger is directed at the humans on the bikes.
- avianlyric 3y ago
  I wish. If drivers stuck to traffic regulations it would be safer for cyclists. The number of cars I see jumping red lights while cycling is obscene, the number of drivers who deliberately closed pass cyclists is also obscene. And that’s before we get to drivers who deliberately injure cyclists, like the guy who deliberately ran me down and hospitalised me for the crime of not wanting him to overtake me while passing through a narrowing in the road that wasn’t wide enough for both of us.
  - zimpenfish 3y ago
    Anecdatum: A week ago, I went to the supermarket across the road. It's a staggered crossing on a main road (Old Kent Road) (with a stupidly designed junction.) In two crossings, I counted 15-20 cars that jumped the red light - either "accidentally" (by entering the junction without a clear exit) or deliberately (speeding up, not slowing down when it changes to yellow, etc.) That was about 5 minutes of time out of a two hour peak period - I'd be amazed if you didn't get several hundred an hour if you sat there and counted. There are, alas, no cameras on this junction - probably because MetPol would be doing nothing but processing these violations 24/7...
    - avianlyric 3y ago
      Ha, I think I know the junctions you’re talking about, near the ASDA right? I avoid going near Old Kent road in anything except a car. That road is an absolute death trap filled with drivers who seem to have no regard for anyone not enclosed in steel, and even then you need to have your wits about when driving. It strikes me as insane that road with so much pedestrian traffic, lined with shops, in a part of London where only something like 30% of the population drives, has so few provisions for pedestrian or cycle safely. With pavements barely wide enough for walking, covered in obstructions, and road markings that looks more like an IQ test, than anything helpful.
      - zimpenfish 3y ago
        > I think I know the junctions you’re talking about, near the ASDA right? Exactly that one, yes. > I avoid going near Old Kent road in anything except a car Yeah, I used to cycle it a fair bit 10-15 years ago but I wouldn't bother these days either (plus there are decent cycleway options for avoiding it.)
- vdaea 3y ago
  The fact that even those who don't drive cars hate cyclists says something. As a pedestrian I see myself much more endangered by cyclists, which swerve everywhere (including the pavement), than by cars, which stay within their lanes.
  - piva00 3y ago
    Like what? Edit since you edited yourself (only their first sentence was in the comment when I first replied): > The fact that even those who don't drive cars hate cyclists says something. As a pedestrian I see myself much more endangered by cyclists, which swerve everywhere (including the pavement), than by cars, which stay within their lanes. I've only seen swerving cyclists everywhere when infrastructure for cycling is poor or non-existent. Anywhere where there's a minimally decent infrastructure I don't see cyclists sharing space with pedestrians on sidewalks, nor swerving crazily around. Maybe it's an issue with not providing appropriate infrastructure instead? If there weren't roads you'd see cars not following lanes, etc.
    - throwaway44773 3y ago
      This is funny for me, just coming back from Vietnam where most of the traffic is motorcycles/scooters. All the behavior that is ascribed to bicyclists here is how motorcyclists behave over there. They drive on the sidewalk (when it's possible, because most sidewalks are usually blocked by parked scooters, among other things). They do not stop at red lights, they do not stop at pedestrian crossings (even honking their horn at you to get out of the way). This is simply how cyclists behave in the absence of incentives to act otherwise. You don't solve this problem by having more infrastructure, you solve this problem by brainwashing the cyclists and drivers to follow the rules, and enforcing the rules.
- pard68 3y ago
  I don't know about where you live but often as not in the US (varies by state) cyclists have different laws to abide by then cars. Most motorists (and cyclists for that matter) are wholly unaware of this.
- jabroni_salad 3y ago
  Motorcycles get treated just as bad. Cruising in the right lane at normal speed? Minding your own business at a stoplight? Someone will take it upon themselves to make sure you are paying attention and the penalty for failure is that you die. Car people see anything 'weird' and just lose their minds to the point that killing another human is an acceptable outcome to them. It's extremely reliable. Get a bike and you will find out exactly how many psychopaths are out there.
  - runamuck 3y ago
    I found the opposite at Red Lights. People see the actual human (me) and act with empathy. Or perhaps they see the knuckle plating on my tactical gloves and think twice about starting a problem.
- marcandre 3y ago
  If only the traffic regulations, and roads were actually designed for bikes. Check the amazing "Not Just Bikes" channel on Stop signs, intelligent traffic lights, and read on Idaho stop. Let's not take existing regulations like the "absolute truth and ultimate way of being". Jaywalking used to be illegal, and in my country at least, pot went from being a crime to being sold by state stores.
- treyd 3y ago
  The difficulty is that the design of cycling infrastructure in many cities (but to be fair, especially in the US) is so poor that it's actually more dangerous to follow the standard cycling rules than it is to take certain liberties away from them.
- Lio 3y ago
  That's a strawman argument. EDIT: I make it a point of honour to try to stick to the Highway Code whether on my bike or in my car. Still random drivers harass me when I'm on my bike. I had someone lean out of a car and try to put a plastic bag over my head when I was cycling once. I would love to hear what I was supposed to have done to justify that. You just have to look at how the press drone on about "lycra clad louts". There's an obsession with identifying us by what we wear as a justification for violence. That's not hurt feelings but actual broken bones and blood violence. Off the top of my head I can think of several newspaper articles calling for barbed wire to be strung across cyclepaths in the UK (Hahaha, joking of course!) and reports where that happened and someone was seriously injured. All in the same paper (Hahaha, no connection obviously!) YouTube is full of people in cars attacking cyclists and it's got fuck all to do with breaking traffic regulations.
  - DiggyJohnson 3y ago
    If you never break a single traffic law while driving you must be very difficult to drive around. Not excusing the other crazy stuff you've put up with. That's insane.
    - Lio 3y ago
      I'm not saying I never break traffic rules, I'm saying I don't deliberately do so. I don't run through red lights or use my mobile phone. Not sure why that would make me difficult to drive around. If I'm on a motorway I overtake and when I've finished my manoeuvre and I just move over again. If I see an amber light then I do what the Highway code suggests and stop if doing so won't cause a problem. If I see a red light definitely stop.
      - DiggyJohnson 3y ago
        I thought you meant never-ever. If you do what the highway code suggests as you describe, it sounds like you're a good defensive driver. I think you can see why I'm asking though, as there's a big difference between never breaking a traffic rule and making to a point to avoid doing so deliberately, especially the egregious ones.
- the_snooze 3y ago
  Even when there's dedicated bike infrastructure, cars seem to love encroaching on that space, in a completely unpredictable, selfish, and dangerous manner. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w4mfGa22ZY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w4mfGa22ZY
- Kalium 3y ago
  Where I am, I get a lot of aggressive behavior from drivers because I am sticking to the traffic regulations and they don't like it. The laws here very explicitly give me a clear right to use almost all roads. Many drivers imagine that bicycles are not permitted in roads and some take it upon themselves to make my life dangerous in an effort to enforce that.
- evantbyrne 3y ago
  No, not in my experiences at all. Road rage against non-car traffic seems to be mostly based on the fact that they mildly inconvenient and easy targets. Unfortunately, psychopaths and people with poor impulse control live amongst us and are allowed to drive. Let's be absolutely clear about what's going on here: motorists murder cyclists all the time.
PaulHoule 3y ago
I dunno, if they could take whatever makes bikes invisible and apply it to tanks and military aircraft they'd have to make it a secret.
- gonzo41 3y ago
  Bad mirrors, and inattentive drivers. I'm not sure how you packaged that up.
- FredPret 3y ago
  Bikes are really hard to see past the A pillars of a car
Dah00n 3y ago
It would likely show better results if it looked at non-sporting events instead. What happens in everyday traffic is likely the cause. Now I think about it, I'm in doubt if you actually categorized cyclists training on open roads as participating in sports? Swap out "cyclists" with "car enthusiasts". That's nonsense. ETA: I'm a cyclist myself.
- nathancahill 3y ago
  Definition of the English word sport: - a game, competition, or activity needing physical effort and skill that is played or done according to rules, for enjoyment and/or as a job - all types of physical activity that people do to keep healthy or for enjoyment https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/sport https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/sport
  - Dah00n 3y ago
    Chess and dart is also a sport, and I don't see those as requiring physical effort and skill. Skill, yes. Physical effort? No. I'm not surprised Cambridge cannot create a proper definition of sport. Road cyclists training on the road train their skills, how? I see no difference in me riding on the road versus Jonas Vingegaard in the "training skill department". Nah, it is recreation or transport in my opinion. Not a sport. The problem is exactly that: When road cyclists think they are doing sports on an open road, they create problems which often end in road rage and sometimes in deaths. The cycling community needs to look inward. They behave like the rotten part of motorcycling. I stopped riding with other cyclists and motorcyclist for this reason. They are a danger to themselves and each other.
  - avianlyric 3y ago
    You know people also cycle for neither of those reasons? Unless we’re gonna start calling walking to the shops a sport as well. I cycle purely for transportation, because it’s cheaper and faster than the alternatives. I certainly don’t compete while cycling to work, and don’t cycle for enjoyment or to keep healthy. It certainly hasn’t kept me healthy give a driver seriously injured while cycling to work, hospitalised me for week, fractured multiple vertebrae making me unable to exercise for 2 months, and resulted in my taking 3 months off work to deal with the injuries and trauma. So yeah, there’s plenty of people out there that cycle in a manner that doesn’t meet your dictionary definition of a sport.
piva00 3y ago
In my limited experience biking in different cultures it's quite directly correlated to how much emphasis car culture has in society. Limited experience because I've only cycled in a few countries but is my main mode of transportation. In Brazil and the USA quite often I experienced aggressive drivers when cycling, actively driving closer to me on a bike while shouting to get off the road, and twice in São Paulo I got hit by a car purposefully (waiting for traffic lights and got bumped from behind by a car once, cycling uphill and a car passed me and swerved onto my side on another). While in Sweden, Denmark and the Netherlands I never experienced a single aggressive driver when cycling. In Germany I had a couple of drivers shouting at me in Berlin but given it's Berlin I can't generalise if German drivers are more adversarial against cyclists, it's a very car-centric culture though so I guess it will correlate. Just some anecdotes, unsure how much of a pattern it is, would be interesting to compare with other people in car-heavy cultures (Australia perhaps?).
oh_sigh 3y ago
I've only gotten respect as a road cyclist in Spain, Portugal, France, and Italy. I did a 2500 mile trip roughly on the path Paris->Porto->Barcelona->Rome, without a single bad experience. I got home to New Jersey, the next day I went out for a ride, and a dude in a truck threw multiple batteries at me as he drove past.
ab71e5 3y ago
Noticed this too, there is some rational annoyance with 'impeding traffic' (perceived or actual) or breaking rules but the impact there is so small that it doesn't explain the negative response. I've had people literally threaten to kill me for making them make a minimal adjustment to drive around me? My theories about this: * A cyclist forces the driver to go out of 'auto pilot' and actively think about driving for a few seconds, which annoys people disproportionately * Cyclists represent a sort of 'others' that we project all kinds of negative feelings on. * Cycling for transportation in North America is only recently taken seriously and this can be used to blame them for any kind of new societal changes that are perceived negatively (liberalism, inflation, political correctness, higher taxes).
michaelt 3y ago
After 20 years of daily rush-hour road cycling in and around London, Cambridge, Coventry, Bristol, Hertfordshire and Surrey, I can report the following verbal responses: Early years: No reaction Inquisitive 5-12 year olds: No reaction Adolescent boys: 1x "Nice bike", 1x trying to race me while doing a wheelie (but no verbal response) Adult women: No reaction Adult men: 1x started exchanging nods with me after passing each other going in opposite directions daily for ~3 years (but no verbal response)
- LeifCarrotson 3y ago
  Wow, that sounds nice. After 5 years of 3-season daily commuting in the midwestern US, I can report 2 instances of being struck by side mirrors, one instance where the driver matched speed and pushed me off the road and off the shoulder into the ditch before speeding away, 4 times getting hit by thrown beer cans or other trash, twice had tires chirp when someone on their phone noticed me only at the last second, 3 times someone in a diesel has stood on the brake and accelerator simultaneously to "rolled coal" on me, and I've received more middle fingers and curses of the general form "Get off the road, asshole/fucker/idiot!" than I can count. The other big danger is a lot of new or timid drivers are afraid to cross the center line even in passing zones, and instead of giving the legally mandated 3 feet outside town/5 feet in city limits, will try to pass very slowly in the same lane. This causes a line of traffic on the 35 MPH (nominally ~55 km/h, actually driven at ~45mph/70kph) street, which provokes the drivers caught in the line. The more physical assaults went down significantly after I mounted a highly-visible action camera on top of my helmet, but verbal assaults seemed to go up.
s1artibartfast 3y ago
Road cyclists infuriate me - Ask me anything. I think most of it comes from shockingly dangerous behavior, which I am concerned will blowback on me. I've seen cyclists in the freeway slow lane, cut across 8 lanes of busy traffic, and they seem to love windiest roads with hairpin turns and no visibility. Perhaps most brazenly, in the middle lane of 65 mile road, in black at night, with no reflectors.
- velcrovan 3y ago
  I've seen none of those things, ever, living most my life in what passes in the US for a bike-friendly city (Minneapolis). For sure, if I did see those things while driving, and if I could do so safely, I would be rolling down my windows and yelling. What I have seen, often, is drivers on residential or downtown streets bearing down on law-abiding cyclists with murderous aggression for no apparent reason than simply having to share the road. General statements like yours kind of support the notion that many drivers who have had a crazy experience with a poor cyclist feel justified in taking out the anger from that experience on any and all cyclists.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    Terrible drivers also provoke anger from me, for what it is worth. While I don't take out mt anger on random bikers, I agree that 'sharing' is a common origin. Many roads are simply not practical or safe to share with bikes.
    - yunwal 3y ago
      Many roads aren’t practical or safe to share with cars either
      - s1artibartfast 3y ago
        agreed. This is what I think is the point of conflict. If each had all the roads they could want, and didnt have to share, then I dont think either would care about the other. Reality is that they do have to share, it isn't safe or convenient, and therefore people get angry.
Ajay-p 3y ago
The amount of ignorance and pure aggression against road cyclists in America is rising to the level of a hate crime, IMHO. Mostly male, it seems, drivers are not willing to accept that not only must they share the road with cyclists, they must do so in a safe manner. The number of memes and comments promoting violence against cyclists must seem to only come from the most ignorant of society.
- dgfitz 3y ago
  The number of cyclists I see on a daily basis completely IGNORE traffic signs, lights, signals, and no-turn-on-red leads me to believe the cyclists must hate themselves more than any driver possibly could.
  - LanceH 3y ago
    Ah yes, just throw things at all cyclists. Run them off the road. Every thread about cyclists being abused includes someone like you mentioning that some cyclists ignore stops with the implication that they started the whole fight or that the fight is justified.
    - gedy 3y ago
      I mean you could say "Ah yes, just throw things at all drivers" as well. Agreed that cars are way more dangerous than bikes, but here in California I do see a lot of aggressive recreational cyclists that act like they have a chip on their shoulder. While they may not be a danger by crashing into things like cars do, their behavior does cause sometimes dangerous issues for other people on the road.
    - jprete 3y ago
      In NYC, 90% of the times I see cyclists - typically because I'm using a crosswalk - they are violating the rules of the road. They don't yield to pedestrians, they don't stay in a lane, they don't signal turns, they don't stop for red lights even to check for cross-traffic. Sometimes I don't have to be in the crosswalk to notice them, because they'll take an electric-powered cycle onto the sidewalk. I am not exaggerating. I pay attention when I see a bicyclist actually stopping so I can cross in the crosswalk when I have the light, or otherwise following the rules of the road. I wish I had the presence of mine to thank those cyclists. But they are rare.
mellosouls 3y ago
Tbf you only have to go online to the cycling forums, or walk any country shared trail to see plenty of aggression, dangerous control and obnoxious, blinkered behaviour and comments. Cyclists are just as bad as drivers when it comes to contemplating The Other.
- eropple 3y ago
  I'll support this comment from a pedestrian, to whom bicycles present some nontrivial danger. Drivers, however, choose to The Other themselves via driving increasingly larger masses of steel, and IME at least seem to be driving ever more incautiously over time in ways that have consequences further down the weight classes. Almost got creased today, even, crossing a quiet suburban street because somebody blew through a four-way stop without looking dead ahead of them. It's supposed to be a 25mph zone. "They're talking mess at the poor benighted car havers" isn't going to fly. (Signed, a car haver who walks ~five miles a day; you are all full of sin.)
- uses 3y ago
  Cyclists can't murder motorists with their bikes though, can they?
  - jprete 3y ago
    Cyclists can kill pedestrians. It's definitely happened, although I don't know how common it is.
    - hospadar 3y ago
      according to the guardian, in the uk, it's extremely uncommon (but not unheard of), only 1% of ped deaths involved a bike [1]. Motor vehicles are WAY more dangerous, and it kind of seems bad faith to suggest anything otherwise - cars are multi-thousand-pound metal boxes that routinely travel at speeds unattainable by all but world-record holding cyclists. The difference in kinetic energy between a car and a bike is massive. It seems pretty logical to assume to me that you'd almost always have fewer ped fatalities if more people were biking instead of driving. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/08/killer-cyclists-roads-bikes-pedestrian-collision-deaths-britain https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/08/killer...
arp242 3y ago
Some of my most aggressive encounters have been with women. It's about 50/50 I'd say. This has been in England, Ireland, and New Zealand. Of course n=1, my experiences may not be representative, etc.
dang 3y ago
Please let's not go into the car vs bike flamewar topic - it's one of the worst and most repetitive. (Dogs vs cats is bad too)

soco 3y ago

Can't say much about the US, but around here I suppose if the cyclists would stick to the traffic regulations there would be somewhat less aggression against them.

ljf 3y ago
If you've ever been around cars (in a car, as a cyclist or as a pedestrian) and sat and watched them for any period - you'll see a huge number of traffic offenses committed by those in cars - mainly using phones, but also speeding, red light jumping, aggressive under and over-taking. But for some reason most people are blind to this and don't get aggressive with drivers. Why might that be?
- marcandre 3y ago
  You forgot not signaling when turning and changing lanes...
  - wiredfool 3y ago
    And driving/parking on sidewalks/footpaths. In the last 2 years of riding bikes and walking the dog, my two closest calls with cars have been on the sidewalk during walkies.
- trgn 3y ago
  Level of responsibility between driver and cyclist is categorically different. A driver will kill when inattentive or impatient. This disconnect between magnitude of input (slouched like a bag of potatoes, dozing) and magnitude of output (casually demolishing a building) is unnatural, it breaks the brain. It's easier to blame the weak, the system, the potholes.
- yungporko 3y ago
  people aren't blind to this at all, being pissed off about it even has it's own name (road rage)
  - ljf 3y ago
    I'd argue it is different in that just seeing or talking about cyclists will often draw anger online and in person - most people don't feel the same way about cars or drivers. Getting angry when someone cuts you off is different to being angry about cyclists just existing.
    - yungporko 3y ago
      i guess that's because it's a chore and arguably dangerous to share the road with cyclists no matter what they're doing, and not only when they're ignoring the rules of the road personally i just cycle on footpaths, i'm not really interested in what the law says. me getting hit by a car is a much more dangerous and likely situation than me riding into a pedestrian, and police aren't going to abandon their car on the road to chase me on foot.
    - D13Fd 3y ago
      > being angry about cyclists just existing. I don't like some cyclists because of their blatant and unsafe disregard for the rules. It's not uncommon to see: - Cyclists ignoring red lights - Cyclists ignoring stop signs - Cyclists riding on a busy sidewalk - Cyclists yelling at pedestrians to move rather than stopping at an intersection as required - Cyclists taking up the entire lane and not permitting cars to pass - Cyclists going the wrong way down a one-way street Some of the worst offenders are e-bike users, who can move very fast and in unexpected ways. It's no fun to have someone silently fly by you from behind, inches away, at 20mph while they are riding what's basically a motorcycle on the sidewalk. I frequently walk in the city, and scooters/bicycles are far more of a hazard than cars. They often can't decide whether they want to be pedestrians or cars, and they often don't follow the rules for either, putting everyone (including themselves) at risk.
      - tonyg 3y ago
- scythe 3y ago
  >But for some reason most people are blind to this and don't get aggressive with drivers. I'm not sure if this is serious, but it's one of the more obviously false claims I've seen on Hacker News: https://everytownresearch.org/reports-of-road-rage-shootings-are-on-the-rise/ https://everytownresearch.org/reports-of-road-rage-shootings... >Experiencing aggressive driving on the road is not uncommon—roughly eight in 10 drivers surveyed by the AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety reported having at least one incident in the month before the survey. In response to your other comment: >angry about cyclists just existing. I don't think these people are angry at cyclists per se at all, they're angry about a perceived anti-car sociopolitical shift, and cyclists are just a visible artifact of that.
  - ljf 3y ago
    I can only assume that you are not a cyclist? I've just ridden down the road safely and legally and had people shout, swear and swerve their cars at me. Believe me, people ARE angry at cyclists - it might be for the reasons you suggest, but their anger is directed at the humans on the bikes.
avianlyric 3y ago
I wish. If drivers stuck to traffic regulations it would be safer for cyclists. The number of cars I see jumping red lights while cycling is obscene, the number of drivers who deliberately closed pass cyclists is also obscene. And that’s before we get to drivers who deliberately injure cyclists, like the guy who deliberately ran me down and hospitalised me for the crime of not wanting him to overtake me while passing through a narrowing in the road that wasn’t wide enough for both of us.
- zimpenfish 3y ago
  Anecdatum: A week ago, I went to the supermarket across the road. It's a staggered crossing on a main road (Old Kent Road) (with a stupidly designed junction.) In two crossings, I counted 15-20 cars that jumped the red light - either "accidentally" (by entering the junction without a clear exit) or deliberately (speeding up, not slowing down when it changes to yellow, etc.) That was about 5 minutes of time out of a two hour peak period - I'd be amazed if you didn't get several hundred an hour if you sat there and counted. There are, alas, no cameras on this junction - probably because MetPol would be doing nothing but processing these violations 24/7...
  - avianlyric 3y ago
    Ha, I think I know the junctions you’re talking about, near the ASDA right? I avoid going near Old Kent road in anything except a car. That road is an absolute death trap filled with drivers who seem to have no regard for anyone not enclosed in steel, and even then you need to have your wits about when driving. It strikes me as insane that road with so much pedestrian traffic, lined with shops, in a part of London where only something like 30% of the population drives, has so few provisions for pedestrian or cycle safely. With pavements barely wide enough for walking, covered in obstructions, and road markings that looks more like an IQ test, than anything helpful.
    - zimpenfish 3y ago
      > I think I know the junctions you’re talking about, near the ASDA right? Exactly that one, yes. > I avoid going near Old Kent road in anything except a car Yeah, I used to cycle it a fair bit 10-15 years ago but I wouldn't bother these days either (plus there are decent cycleway options for avoiding it.)
vdaea 3y ago
The fact that even those who don't drive cars hate cyclists says something. As a pedestrian I see myself much more endangered by cyclists, which swerve everywhere (including the pavement), than by cars, which stay within their lanes.
- piva00 3y ago
  Like what? Edit since you edited yourself (only their first sentence was in the comment when I first replied): > The fact that even those who don't drive cars hate cyclists says something. As a pedestrian I see myself much more endangered by cyclists, which swerve everywhere (including the pavement), than by cars, which stay within their lanes. I've only seen swerving cyclists everywhere when infrastructure for cycling is poor or non-existent. Anywhere where there's a minimally decent infrastructure I don't see cyclists sharing space with pedestrians on sidewalks, nor swerving crazily around. Maybe it's an issue with not providing appropriate infrastructure instead? If there weren't roads you'd see cars not following lanes, etc.
  - throwaway44773 3y ago
    This is funny for me, just coming back from Vietnam where most of the traffic is motorcycles/scooters. All the behavior that is ascribed to bicyclists here is how motorcyclists behave over there. They drive on the sidewalk (when it's possible, because most sidewalks are usually blocked by parked scooters, among other things). They do not stop at red lights, they do not stop at pedestrian crossings (even honking their horn at you to get out of the way). This is simply how cyclists behave in the absence of incentives to act otherwise. You don't solve this problem by having more infrastructure, you solve this problem by brainwashing the cyclists and drivers to follow the rules, and enforcing the rules.
pard68 3y ago
I don't know about where you live but often as not in the US (varies by state) cyclists have different laws to abide by then cars. Most motorists (and cyclists for that matter) are wholly unaware of this.
jabroni_salad 3y ago
Motorcycles get treated just as bad. Cruising in the right lane at normal speed? Minding your own business at a stoplight? Someone will take it upon themselves to make sure you are paying attention and the penalty for failure is that you die. Car people see anything 'weird' and just lose their minds to the point that killing another human is an acceptable outcome to them. It's extremely reliable. Get a bike and you will find out exactly how many psychopaths are out there.
- runamuck 3y ago
  I found the opposite at Red Lights. People see the actual human (me) and act with empathy. Or perhaps they see the knuckle plating on my tactical gloves and think twice about starting a problem.
marcandre 3y ago
If only the traffic regulations, and roads were actually designed for bikes. Check the amazing "Not Just Bikes" channel on Stop signs, intelligent traffic lights, and read on Idaho stop. Let's not take existing regulations like the "absolute truth and ultimate way of being". Jaywalking used to be illegal, and in my country at least, pot went from being a crime to being sold by state stores.
treyd 3y ago
The difficulty is that the design of cycling infrastructure in many cities (but to be fair, especially in the US) is so poor that it's actually more dangerous to follow the standard cycling rules than it is to take certain liberties away from them.
Lio 3y ago
That's a strawman argument. EDIT: I make it a point of honour to try to stick to the Highway Code whether on my bike or in my car. Still random drivers harass me when I'm on my bike. I had someone lean out of a car and try to put a plastic bag over my head when I was cycling once. I would love to hear what I was supposed to have done to justify that. You just have to look at how the press drone on about "lycra clad louts". There's an obsession with identifying us by what we wear as a justification for violence. That's not hurt feelings but actual broken bones and blood violence. Off the top of my head I can think of several newspaper articles calling for barbed wire to be strung across cyclepaths in the UK (Hahaha, joking of course!) and reports where that happened and someone was seriously injured. All in the same paper (Hahaha, no connection obviously!) YouTube is full of people in cars attacking cyclists and it's got fuck all to do with breaking traffic regulations.
- DiggyJohnson 3y ago
  If you never break a single traffic law while driving you must be very difficult to drive around. Not excusing the other crazy stuff you've put up with. That's insane.
  - Lio 3y ago
    I'm not saying I never break traffic rules, I'm saying I don't deliberately do so. I don't run through red lights or use my mobile phone. Not sure why that would make me difficult to drive around. If I'm on a motorway I overtake and when I've finished my manoeuvre and I just move over again. If I see an amber light then I do what the Highway code suggests and stop if doing so won't cause a problem. If I see a red light definitely stop.
    - DiggyJohnson 3y ago
      I thought you meant never-ever. If you do what the highway code suggests as you describe, it sounds like you're a good defensive driver. I think you can see why I'm asking though, as there's a big difference between never breaking a traffic rule and making to a point to avoid doing so deliberately, especially the egregious ones.
the_snooze 3y ago
Even when there's dedicated bike infrastructure, cars seem to love encroaching on that space, in a completely unpredictable, selfish, and dangerous manner. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w4mfGa22ZY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w4mfGa22ZY
Kalium 3y ago
Where I am, I get a lot of aggressive behavior from drivers because I am sticking to the traffic regulations and they don't like it. The laws here very explicitly give me a clear right to use almost all roads. Many drivers imagine that bicycles are not permitted in roads and some take it upon themselves to make my life dangerous in an effort to enforce that.
evantbyrne 3y ago
No, not in my experiences at all. Road rage against non-car traffic seems to be mostly based on the fact that they mildly inconvenient and easy targets. Unfortunately, psychopaths and people with poor impulse control live amongst us and are allowed to drive. Let's be absolutely clear about what's going on here: motorists murder cyclists all the time.

PaulHoule 3y ago

I dunno, if they could take whatever makes bikes invisible and apply it to tanks and military aircraft they'd have to make it a secret.

gonzo41 3y ago
Bad mirrors, and inattentive drivers. I'm not sure how you packaged that up.
FredPret 3y ago
Bikes are really hard to see past the A pillars of a car

Dah00n 3y ago

It would likely show better results if it looked at non-sporting events instead. What happens in everyday traffic is likely the cause. Now I think about it, I'm in doubt if you actually categorized cyclists training on open roads as participating in sports? Swap out "cyclists" with "car enthusiasts". That's nonsense. ETA: I'm a cyclist myself.

nathancahill 3y ago
Definition of the English word sport: - a game, competition, or activity needing physical effort and skill that is played or done according to rules, for enjoyment and/or as a job - all types of physical activity that people do to keep healthy or for enjoyment https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/sport https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/sport
- Dah00n 3y ago
  Chess and dart is also a sport, and I don't see those as requiring physical effort and skill. Skill, yes. Physical effort? No. I'm not surprised Cambridge cannot create a proper definition of sport. Road cyclists training on the road train their skills, how? I see no difference in me riding on the road versus Jonas Vingegaard in the "training skill department". Nah, it is recreation or transport in my opinion. Not a sport. The problem is exactly that: When road cyclists think they are doing sports on an open road, they create problems which often end in road rage and sometimes in deaths. The cycling community needs to look inward. They behave like the rotten part of motorcycling. I stopped riding with other cyclists and motorcyclist for this reason. They are a danger to themselves and each other.
- avianlyric 3y ago
  You know people also cycle for neither of those reasons? Unless we’re gonna start calling walking to the shops a sport as well. I cycle purely for transportation, because it’s cheaper and faster than the alternatives. I certainly don’t compete while cycling to work, and don’t cycle for enjoyment or to keep healthy. It certainly hasn’t kept me healthy give a driver seriously injured while cycling to work, hospitalised me for week, fractured multiple vertebrae making me unable to exercise for 2 months, and resulted in my taking 3 months off work to deal with the injuries and trauma. So yeah, there’s plenty of people out there that cycle in a manner that doesn’t meet your dictionary definition of a sport.

piva00 3y ago

In my limited experience biking in different cultures it's quite directly correlated to how much emphasis car culture has in society. Limited experience because I've only cycled in a few countries but is my main mode of transportation. In Brazil and the USA quite often I experienced aggressive drivers when cycling, actively driving closer to me on a bike while shouting to get off the road, and twice in São Paulo I got hit by a car purposefully (waiting for traffic lights and got bumped from behind by a car once, cycling uphill and a car passed me and swerved onto my side on another). While in Sweden, Denmark and the Netherlands I never experienced a single aggressive driver when cycling. In Germany I had a couple of drivers shouting at me in Berlin but given it's Berlin I can't generalise if German drivers are more adversarial against cyclists, it's a very car-centric culture though so I guess it will correlate. Just some anecdotes, unsure how much of a pattern it is, would be interesting to compare with other people in car-heavy cultures (Australia perhaps?).

oh_sigh 3y ago

I've only gotten respect as a road cyclist in Spain, Portugal, France, and Italy. I did a 2500 mile trip roughly on the path Paris->Porto->Barcelona->Rome, without a single bad experience. I got home to New Jersey, the next day I went out for a ride, and a dude in a truck threw multiple batteries at me as he drove past.

ab71e5 3y ago

Noticed this too, there is some rational annoyance with 'impeding traffic' (perceived or actual) or breaking rules but the impact there is so small that it doesn't explain the negative response. I've had people literally threaten to kill me for making them make a minimal adjustment to drive around me? My theories about this: * A cyclist forces the driver to go out of 'auto pilot' and actively think about driving for a few seconds, which annoys people disproportionately * Cyclists represent a sort of 'others' that we project all kinds of negative feelings on. * Cycling for transportation in North America is only recently taken seriously and this can be used to blame them for any kind of new societal changes that are perceived negatively (liberalism, inflation, political correctness, higher taxes).

michaelt 3y ago

After 20 years of daily rush-hour road cycling in and around London, Cambridge, Coventry, Bristol, Hertfordshire and Surrey, I can report the following verbal responses: Early years: No reaction Inquisitive 5-12 year olds: No reaction Adolescent boys: 1x "Nice bike", 1x trying to race me while doing a wheelie (but no verbal response) Adult women: No reaction Adult men: 1x started exchanging nods with me after passing each other going in opposite directions daily for ~3 years (but no verbal response)

LeifCarrotson 3y ago
Wow, that sounds nice. After 5 years of 3-season daily commuting in the midwestern US, I can report 2 instances of being struck by side mirrors, one instance where the driver matched speed and pushed me off the road and off the shoulder into the ditch before speeding away, 4 times getting hit by thrown beer cans or other trash, twice had tires chirp when someone on their phone noticed me only at the last second, 3 times someone in a diesel has stood on the brake and accelerator simultaneously to "rolled coal" on me, and I've received more middle fingers and curses of the general form "Get off the road, asshole/fucker/idiot!" than I can count. The other big danger is a lot of new or timid drivers are afraid to cross the center line even in passing zones, and instead of giving the legally mandated 3 feet outside town/5 feet in city limits, will try to pass very slowly in the same lane. This causes a line of traffic on the 35 MPH (nominally ~55 km/h, actually driven at ~45mph/70kph) street, which provokes the drivers caught in the line. The more physical assaults went down significantly after I mounted a highly-visible action camera on top of my helmet, but verbal assaults seemed to go up.

s1artibartfast 3y ago

Road cyclists infuriate me - Ask me anything. I think most of it comes from shockingly dangerous behavior, which I am concerned will blowback on me. I've seen cyclists in the freeway slow lane, cut across 8 lanes of busy traffic, and they seem to love windiest roads with hairpin turns and no visibility. Perhaps most brazenly, in the middle lane of 65 mile road, in black at night, with no reflectors.

velcrovan 3y ago
I've seen none of those things, ever, living most my life in what passes in the US for a bike-friendly city (Minneapolis). For sure, if I did see those things while driving, and if I could do so safely, I would be rolling down my windows and yelling. What I have seen, often, is drivers on residential or downtown streets bearing down on law-abiding cyclists with murderous aggression for no apparent reason than simply having to share the road. General statements like yours kind of support the notion that many drivers who have had a crazy experience with a poor cyclist feel justified in taking out the anger from that experience on any and all cyclists.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  Terrible drivers also provoke anger from me, for what it is worth. While I don't take out mt anger on random bikers, I agree that 'sharing' is a common origin. Many roads are simply not practical or safe to share with bikes.
  - yunwal 3y ago
    Many roads aren’t practical or safe to share with cars either
    - s1artibartfast 3y ago
      agreed. This is what I think is the point of conflict. If each had all the roads they could want, and didnt have to share, then I dont think either would care about the other. Reality is that they do have to share, it isn't safe or convenient, and therefore people get angry.

Ajay-p 3y ago

The amount of ignorance and pure aggression against road cyclists in America is rising to the level of a hate crime, IMHO. Mostly male, it seems, drivers are not willing to accept that not only must they share the road with cyclists, they must do so in a safe manner. The number of memes and comments promoting violence against cyclists must seem to only come from the most ignorant of society.

dgfitz 3y ago
The number of cyclists I see on a daily basis completely IGNORE traffic signs, lights, signals, and no-turn-on-red leads me to believe the cyclists must hate themselves more than any driver possibly could.
- LanceH 3y ago
  Ah yes, just throw things at all cyclists. Run them off the road. Every thread about cyclists being abused includes someone like you mentioning that some cyclists ignore stops with the implication that they started the whole fight or that the fight is justified.
  - gedy 3y ago
    I mean you could say "Ah yes, just throw things at all drivers" as well. Agreed that cars are way more dangerous than bikes, but here in California I do see a lot of aggressive recreational cyclists that act like they have a chip on their shoulder. While they may not be a danger by crashing into things like cars do, their behavior does cause sometimes dangerous issues for other people on the road.
  - jprete 3y ago
    In NYC, 90% of the times I see cyclists - typically because I'm using a crosswalk - they are violating the rules of the road. They don't yield to pedestrians, they don't stay in a lane, they don't signal turns, they don't stop for red lights even to check for cross-traffic. Sometimes I don't have to be in the crosswalk to notice them, because they'll take an electric-powered cycle onto the sidewalk. I am not exaggerating. I pay attention when I see a bicyclist actually stopping so I can cross in the crosswalk when I have the light, or otherwise following the rules of the road. I wish I had the presence of mine to thank those cyclists. But they are rare.

mellosouls 3y ago

Tbf you only have to go online to the cycling forums, or walk any country shared trail to see plenty of aggression, dangerous control and obnoxious, blinkered behaviour and comments. Cyclists are just as bad as drivers when it comes to contemplating The Other.

eropple 3y ago
I'll support this comment from a pedestrian, to whom bicycles present some nontrivial danger. Drivers, however, choose to The Other themselves via driving increasingly larger masses of steel, and IME at least seem to be driving ever more incautiously over time in ways that have consequences further down the weight classes. Almost got creased today, even, crossing a quiet suburban street because somebody blew through a four-way stop without looking dead ahead of them. It's supposed to be a 25mph zone. "They're talking mess at the poor benighted car havers" isn't going to fly. (Signed, a car haver who walks ~five miles a day; you are all full of sin.)
uses 3y ago
Cyclists can't murder motorists with their bikes though, can they?
- jprete 3y ago
  Cyclists can kill pedestrians. It's definitely happened, although I don't know how common it is.
  - hospadar 3y ago
    according to the guardian, in the uk, it's extremely uncommon (but not unheard of), only 1% of ped deaths involved a bike [1]. Motor vehicles are WAY more dangerous, and it kind of seems bad faith to suggest anything otherwise - cars are multi-thousand-pound metal boxes that routinely travel at speeds unattainable by all but world-record holding cyclists. The difference in kinetic energy between a car and a bike is massive. It seems pretty logical to assume to me that you'd almost always have fewer ped fatalities if more people were biking instead of driving. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/08/killer-cyclists-roads-bikes-pedestrian-collision-deaths-britain https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/08/killer...

arp242 3y ago

Some of my most aggressive encounters have been with women. It's about 50/50 I'd say. This has been in England, Ireland, and New Zealand. Of course n=1, my experiences may not be representative, etc.

dang 3y ago

Please let's not go into the car vs bike flamewar topic - it's one of the worst and most repetitive. (Dogs vs cats is bad too)