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As someone who doesn't live in Europe and never set foot in Europe, it seems like the #1 issue is immigration - both legal and refugees. Am I correct?

DeathArrow 3y ago
Woke ideology in general. But yes, immigration is a big part of it.
- patates 3y ago
  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke What's wrong with being "woke"? People can't tolerate the fact that some still want social justice as supposedly "less equal" people rush into the country? Yeah? Then they should just say it! I just want people to openly express the racism in their minds without coming up with ridiculous terms like "anti-woke". Truth would be them saying "We don't want equality, we believe we are privileged and we want to live that", why is it so hard to say? But no. We didn't want to throw away the government! We like equality, just not woke! This is all you hear.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - t0bia_s 3y ago
    Ideology that tries to make wired and pathological behavior and ideas a normal thing and try shame others for not adopting it will never be accepted by majority. We have democracy, not dictatorship.
    - patates 3y ago
      > Ideology that tries to make wired and pathological behavior and ideas a normal thing What are you referring to? Read some history on being "woke", what part is problematic?
      - JodieBenitez 3y ago
        > what part is problematic? The zealots are problematic.
      - t0bia_s 3y ago
        Define "being woke".
        patates 3y ago
        From Wikipedia: > Woke is an adjective derived from African-American Vernacular English (AAVE) meaning "alert to racial prejudice and discrimination".
        leereeves 3y ago
        They are the biggest source of racial prejudice and discrimination, from anti-white attitudes like "it's impossible to be racist to white people" to DEI policies that openly discriminate against white people. This isn't even hidden. Advocates proudly declare: "The only remedy to past discrimination is present discrimination. The only remedy to present discrimination is future discrimination." Perhaps this is an instance of Goodhart's law (when a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure). Diversity is an excellent thing when it happens naturally as a result of equal opportunity. But when diversity becomes the target, it inspires divisive race-based selection practices that people quite correctly fight against. That's surely a factor in the recent decline of the left.
  - mantas 3y ago
    Woke is way beyond equality to the point that it brings anti-equality policies. Wanting to control your borders and reduce migration is not a „privilege“. Nor it has anything to do with racism.
    - egeozcan 3y ago
      > Woke is way beyond equality to the point that it brings anti-equality policies. How? Give an example. > Wanting to control your borders and reduce migration is not a „privilege“. Nor it has anything to do with racism. You can support reducing migration. That's nothing to do with being against woke or the point above.
      - mantas 3y ago
        Transathletes is a hill I'm willing to die on. There's no equality in letting men compete with women. Regardion migration, that's the vibe I got from OP. And I frequently see woke to bother about native and indigenous rights. But they shut silent about native europeans preserving their cultures.
        egeozcan 3y ago
        A person who is alert about racial discrimination can still not support transathletes. That's a big discussion topic and many people have differing opinions. The post above clearly states that anti-woke is being used as a cover for racism. Supporting controlled migration is no racism (by itself, to be clear). Probably we have very different opinions about migration but none of us need to be racist. Racist people are more likely to want to restrict migration but of course not all people who do so are racist. It seems like the woke movement became something like Antifa, an imaginary enemy that supports everything that one doesn't. Being alert to racial prejudice and discrimination doesn't mean you do or don't care about the European culture. It tells nothing about it. Like being a feminist also doesn't.
        mantas 3y ago
        I’m saying why woke gets the bad rap. As long as woke people themselves won’t set sane borders for their movement, they’ll be seen as more vocal parts of it. I see „alert to racial prejudice“ issues all the time. E.g. mass media writing Black but white. And all the „muh racism“ crowd is silent. Woke seems to be all about hipocrisy tbh. Antifa in my experience is much less hipocritical. More like they’re kids looking for trouble to went their frustrations in physical ways. Both types of skinheads, „antifa“ and „neonazis“ fit perfectly together.
dtf 3y ago
There was a piece in the Guardian this morning arguing that it differed by country, and in particular that in countries with vocally anti-migrant governments such as Italy, it had become less of an issue. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/22/crisis-tribe-europe-2024-european-elections https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/22/crisis... "Germany is the only country where immigration is clearly in the lead when people are asked which crisis bothers them most when they think about the future. Estonians and Poles are focused on the war in Ukraine. Italy and Portugal see the economic crisis as their biggest threat. Spain, Britain and Romania are the countries where Covid-19 is seen as the biggest trauma. And in France and Denmark the climate emergency is considered the most important crisis."
- nvm0n2 3y ago
  That article seems rather confused. They asked people "Which of the following issues has, over the past decade, most changed the way you look at your future?" and then assume that this is what will define the 2024 election year. Clearly COVID will not. So that leaves climate and immigration, but the question is very vague. "Changed the way you look at the future" doesn't imply you think there's a crisis or will vote for a party that treats the issue as a crisis. The Guardian and the organization they cite both think it does.
dauertewigkeit 3y ago
No, don't generalize like that. What you have to understand is that even as a percentage of the total population, immigration is only a problem in certain countries/regions mainly both because of failed immigration policies and also because the people there are plainly more racist/xenophobic. I would put the slowing economic growth and aging population as more substantial EU-wide problems.
poisonborz 3y ago
NO. Just no. It is the loudest of the topics and easiest to incite the slightly racist majority. Criminality numbers, welfare expenses, "jobs taken", these numbers do not reflect the huge impact the right proclaims. "No-go zones" and "gang warfare in sweden" are easy to pull out of context. The immigration numbers don't even touch the overall population decline. The overall topic of "population exchange" is a longer term philosophical topic (that began decades ago) rather than "number 1 burning issue".
t0bia_s 3y ago
No. Right now its inflation, inaccessible house rents and ridiculous energy prices.
boffinAudio 3y ago
The #1 issue for Europe is the participation in the USA/5-eyes war crimes regime, and the subsequent culpability for the heinous acts committed by the West on the very nations where Europe is getting a majority of its refugees from. Middle-East refugees are coming here to EUROPE to escape OUR wars. Until we prosecute the war criminals involved, the immigration issue is not going to resolve. Make Damascus Great Again, and you won't have Syrian orphans burning cars in Paris ... rebuild Mosul and Raqqa, and the immigrant kids whose lives were torn apart by those atrocities will have somewhere other than Cologne in which to party. It is OUR wars which are forcing these much-derided immigrants to flee their nations and find refuge in the one places WE are not dropping bombs - our own nations. Until we stop this, there will be victims of our wars attempting immigration to safer places .. our own back yards, of course.
- dzhiurgis 3y ago
  Interesting emotional spin, but they aren't really escaping our wars - they running away from dictators they elected
  - boffinAudio 3y ago
    No, they really are escaping OUR wars, which we are fighting because we are using the presence of 'dictators' in the region as an excuse to expand our control over the Middle East and demolish nation after nation, per plans made by PNAC/CNAC criminals decades ago. The Western nations have a LOT of innocent blood on our hands, more so than any dictator you might care to identify as your hated enemy/Emmanuel Goldstein figure, used to justify further atrocities by our nations.
    - dzhiurgis 3y ago
      I'm going to twist your argument into something brutal - attempts to stop genocides are creating refugees???
      - boffinAudio 3y ago
pAllain 3y ago
[flagged]
sebazzz 3y ago
Whatever it is, immigration is impossible to stop in a humane way if we want to keep our current standard of living. Of course you wish everyone the live we have, but it is not sustainable to have that in Europe - but because of the inherent polution and the space in the cities. So, you need to distuigish between refugees that can’t return home safely because they are political activist, gay, or thousands of other reasons - and regufees who are, as the populists like to say “gold diggers” and are here to get a better way of living, regardless how they achieve that. To distuigish that, you need to investigate each individual refugee, and that takes time and money by itself. Because you can’t keep them in a single building for months or even years at a time, you allow them to roam free. This however causes other issues, because there are bad apples in the bunch who then steal from the local population, or even commit atrocities against fellow refugees. However, the view of part of the public is that there isn’t sufficiently acted by the police or politics on this. And even sending them back costs money, in the form of airplanes and such.

DeathArrow 3y ago

Woke ideology in general. But yes, immigration is a big part of it.

patates 3y ago
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke What's wrong with being "woke"? People can't tolerate the fact that some still want social justice as supposedly "less equal" people rush into the country? Yeah? Then they should just say it! I just want people to openly express the racism in their minds without coming up with ridiculous terms like "anti-woke". Truth would be them saying "We don't want equality, we believe we are privileged and we want to live that", why is it so hard to say? But no. We didn't want to throw away the government! We like equality, just not woke! This is all you hear.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- t0bia_s 3y ago
  Ideology that tries to make wired and pathological behavior and ideas a normal thing and try shame others for not adopting it will never be accepted by majority. We have democracy, not dictatorship.
  - patates 3y ago
    > Ideology that tries to make wired and pathological behavior and ideas a normal thing What are you referring to? Read some history on being "woke", what part is problematic?
    - JodieBenitez 3y ago
      > what part is problematic? The zealots are problematic.
    - t0bia_s 3y ago
      Define "being woke".
      - patates 3y ago
        From Wikipedia: > Woke is an adjective derived from African-American Vernacular English (AAVE) meaning "alert to racial prejudice and discrimination".
        leereeves 3y ago
        They are the biggest source of racial prejudice and discrimination, from anti-white attitudes like "it's impossible to be racist to white people" to DEI policies that openly discriminate against white people. This isn't even hidden. Advocates proudly declare: "The only remedy to past discrimination is present discrimination. The only remedy to present discrimination is future discrimination." Perhaps this is an instance of Goodhart's law (when a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure). Diversity is an excellent thing when it happens naturally as a result of equal opportunity. But when diversity becomes the target, it inspires divisive race-based selection practices that people quite correctly fight against. That's surely a factor in the recent decline of the left.
- mantas 3y ago
  Woke is way beyond equality to the point that it brings anti-equality policies. Wanting to control your borders and reduce migration is not a „privilege“. Nor it has anything to do with racism.
  - egeozcan 3y ago
    > Woke is way beyond equality to the point that it brings anti-equality policies. How? Give an example. > Wanting to control your borders and reduce migration is not a „privilege“. Nor it has anything to do with racism. You can support reducing migration. That's nothing to do with being against woke or the point above.
    - mantas 3y ago
      Transathletes is a hill I'm willing to die on. There's no equality in letting men compete with women. Regardion migration, that's the vibe I got from OP. And I frequently see woke to bother about native and indigenous rights. But they shut silent about native europeans preserving their cultures.
      - egeozcan 3y ago
        A person who is alert about racial discrimination can still not support transathletes. That's a big discussion topic and many people have differing opinions. The post above clearly states that anti-woke is being used as a cover for racism. Supporting controlled migration is no racism (by itself, to be clear). Probably we have very different opinions about migration but none of us need to be racist. Racist people are more likely to want to restrict migration but of course not all people who do so are racist. It seems like the woke movement became something like Antifa, an imaginary enemy that supports everything that one doesn't. Being alert to racial prejudice and discrimination doesn't mean you do or don't care about the European culture. It tells nothing about it. Like being a feminist also doesn't.
        mantas 3y ago
        I’m saying why woke gets the bad rap. As long as woke people themselves won’t set sane borders for their movement, they’ll be seen as more vocal parts of it. I see „alert to racial prejudice“ issues all the time. E.g. mass media writing Black but white. And all the „muh racism“ crowd is silent. Woke seems to be all about hipocrisy tbh. Antifa in my experience is much less hipocritical. More like they’re kids looking for trouble to went their frustrations in physical ways. Both types of skinheads, „antifa“ and „neonazis“ fit perfectly together.

dtf 3y ago

There was a piece in the Guardian this morning arguing that it differed by country, and in particular that in countries with vocally anti-migrant governments such as Italy, it had become less of an issue. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/22/crisis-tribe-europe-2024-european-elections https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/22/crisis... "Germany is the only country where immigration is clearly in the lead when people are asked which crisis bothers them most when they think about the future. Estonians and Poles are focused on the war in Ukraine. Italy and Portugal see the economic crisis as their biggest threat. Spain, Britain and Romania are the countries where Covid-19 is seen as the biggest trauma. And in France and Denmark the climate emergency is considered the most important crisis."

nvm0n2 3y ago
That article seems rather confused. They asked people "Which of the following issues has, over the past decade, most changed the way you look at your future?" and then assume that this is what will define the 2024 election year. Clearly COVID will not. So that leaves climate and immigration, but the question is very vague. "Changed the way you look at the future" doesn't imply you think there's a crisis or will vote for a party that treats the issue as a crisis. The Guardian and the organization they cite both think it does.

dauertewigkeit 3y ago

No, don't generalize like that. What you have to understand is that even as a percentage of the total population, immigration is only a problem in certain countries/regions mainly both because of failed immigration policies and also because the people there are plainly more racist/xenophobic. I would put the slowing economic growth and aging population as more substantial EU-wide problems.

poisonborz 3y ago

NO. Just no. It is the loudest of the topics and easiest to incite the slightly racist majority. Criminality numbers, welfare expenses, "jobs taken", these numbers do not reflect the huge impact the right proclaims. "No-go zones" and "gang warfare in sweden" are easy to pull out of context. The immigration numbers don't even touch the overall population decline. The overall topic of "population exchange" is a longer term philosophical topic (that began decades ago) rather than "number 1 burning issue".

t0bia_s 3y ago

No. Right now its inflation, inaccessible house rents and ridiculous energy prices.

boffinAudio 3y ago

The #1 issue for Europe is the participation in the USA/5-eyes war crimes regime, and the subsequent culpability for the heinous acts committed by the West on the very nations where Europe is getting a majority of its refugees from. Middle-East refugees are coming here to EUROPE to escape OUR wars. Until we prosecute the war criminals involved, the immigration issue is not going to resolve. Make Damascus Great Again, and you won't have Syrian orphans burning cars in Paris ... rebuild Mosul and Raqqa, and the immigrant kids whose lives were torn apart by those atrocities will have somewhere other than Cologne in which to party. It is OUR wars which are forcing these much-derided immigrants to flee their nations and find refuge in the one places WE are not dropping bombs - our own nations. Until we stop this, there will be victims of our wars attempting immigration to safer places .. our own back yards, of course.

dzhiurgis 3y ago
Interesting emotional spin, but they aren't really escaping our wars - they running away from dictators they elected
- boffinAudio 3y ago
  No, they really are escaping OUR wars, which we are fighting because we are using the presence of 'dictators' in the region as an excuse to expand our control over the Middle East and demolish nation after nation, per plans made by PNAC/CNAC criminals decades ago. The Western nations have a LOT of innocent blood on our hands, more so than any dictator you might care to identify as your hated enemy/Emmanuel Goldstein figure, used to justify further atrocities by our nations.
  - dzhiurgis 3y ago
    I'm going to twist your argument into something brutal - attempts to stop genocides are creating refugees???
    - boffinAudio 3y ago

pAllain 3y ago

[flagged]

sebazzz 3y ago

Whatever it is, immigration is impossible to stop in a humane way if we want to keep our current standard of living. Of course you wish everyone the live we have, but it is not sustainable to have that in Europe - but because of the inherent polution and the space in the cities. So, you need to distuigish between refugees that can’t return home safely because they are political activist, gay, or thousands of other reasons - and regufees who are, as the populists like to say “gold diggers” and are here to get a better way of living, regardless how they achieve that. To distuigish that, you need to investigate each individual refugee, and that takes time and money by itself. Because you can’t keep them in a single building for months or even years at a time, you allow them to roam free. This however causes other issues, because there are bad apples in the bunch who then steal from the local population, or even commit atrocities against fellow refugees. However, the view of part of the public is that there isn’t sufficiently acted by the police or politics on this. And even sending them back costs money, in the form of airplanes and such.