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Meanwhile the AfD is looking to at least double their share of the votes perhaps to almost 25% of the electorate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_

by hnhg 3y ago

Meanwhile the AfD is looking to at least double their share of the votes perhaps to almost 25% of the electorate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_German_federal_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_G...

hutzlibu 3y ago
Yes and they likely will win in some eastern states. "The party leads in several states in eastern Germany, the region where its support is strongest — including three, Brandenburg, Saxony and Thuringia, that are slated to hold elections this fall." Which sucks, because I happen to live there. And my partner with latin american origins often experience racism here. So we are thinking of going away, but the mass rallies are giving me some hope.
- shiroiuma 3y ago
  Mass rallies in Berlin and Munich aren't going to do much about blatant racism in Saxony. That's a bit like an American thinking that activism in NYC is going to have a real effect on the mentality of people in rural Mississippi. The values of people in those different areas are extremely different, and the people in the economically "left behind" regions are actually going to feel even more attacked by these rallies, most likely, since they already feel like their views are being ignored.
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    There were also some rallies in saxony and more are scheduled for next weekend. Way lower in numbers of course, but it is something. And it is a wake up call for people to come together, before it is too late. "the people in the economically "left behind" regions are actually going to feel even more attacked by these rallies, most likely, since they already feel like their views are being ignored." And most of those people radicalized during Covid (there is a big intersection of anti vaxx people with the AfD). They already live in their own universe - disconnected from any source that might challenge their worldview and they made up their mind already about everything. They are comfortable with a de facto Nazi Leader (Höcke) - and yes, they complain that they are getting ignored. But sorry, I would continue to ignore their views of a racist white germany. Apart from that, sure the big politics made many misstakes and did not care about those "left behind" regions at all. And yes, imposing top down, that a quite village suddenly has to host many war traumatized immigrants - was not the way to do it. But the big politics did - and just branded every concerns as racist. That rightfully pissed people off. But being pissed off about the government is still no justification for becoming a Nazi in my opinion.
    - soco 3y ago
      The above point is, for the moment those people don't get many alternative solutions to their problems. Okay not "solutions" as what AfD proposes is not a solution, but alternative views. And it will be an uphill battle because as you noticed the neonazis ride the conspiracies wave, and that's something very difficult to fight...
    - vladvasiliu 3y ago
      I don't live in Germany, but your points seem similar to what I see happen on this side of the Rhine. But what are those people to do? Their only weapon is the ballot. I don't know how elections work over there, but over here, blank votes aren't counted. You can't vote "against" someone while at the same time not voting for someone else. Don't like Macron nor Le Pen (the runner-up in the last elections)? Tough. Your opinion doesn't count. So maybe they don't actually want the AfD in power, but hope that the incumbents get the message that they will get their asses voted out if they don't at least feign to listen. And you know that being in power is a politician's topmost priority. Calling them racists and whatnot will very probably not help "non-nazis'" case.
      - lukan 3y ago
        "Calling them racists and whatnot will very probably not help "non-nazis'" case." Well, but they overwhelmingly are racists. I should know, I grew up and live here. And I debate with them. And I try to shield my half german kids from their racism as much as possible. Of course, officially allmost no one is a racist. So there is a meme by now: "I am no racist, but .... " (followed by something clearly racists, germany needs to remain white, but of course white is also not said, but biological germans. Autochtone germans, etc. ) "Their only weapon is the ballot. I don't know how elections work over there, but over here, blank votes aren't counted." Over here neither. And I also have a hard time finding a party I could really support. And I am also pissed of at the government. I still don't vote for people, who want a new german empire, as I see no improvement here, but rather the opposite. Oh and quite many there (but not all) also dream of joining forces with Putin as he also hates multiculture and diversity. I understand the frustration that made people go into that direction - that does not mean I have to open myself up, to embrace them.
zilti 3y ago
Final wakeup call for the other parties.
- DeathArrow 3y ago
  So they will finally give the people what they ask for? And stop doing what the people dislike?
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    "So they will finally give the people what they ask for? " How is that possible, when the people themself are divided? For example with weapon support for Ukraine: "Some 44% believe sending Leopard 2 battle tanks to Kyiv is the wrong decision, according to the results of a survey by pollster YouGov published on Sunday. At least 41% support the German government as it plans to send the first of 18 tanks to Ukraine " https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/majority-of-germans-against-tank-jet-deliveries-to-ukraine-survey/2831659 https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/majority-of-germans-against-... And with immigration it is similar. Quite some literally want to protect germany as a white nation that speaks only german - but many don't. Many are sceptical of arab troublemakers, but otherwise like a diverse society. So where is the solution fitting everyone? What can the politicians do, to make everyone happy?
    - DeathArrow 3y ago
      >So where is the solution fitting everyone? What can the politicians do, to make everyone happy? Do it the Swiss way and ask people trough a plebiscite?
      - JodieBenitez 3y ago
        Exercising real democracy ? Are you nuts ? That would require educated citizens in the first place. No no no... elected representatives with carte blanche will do.
      - hutzlibu 3y ago
        Oh yes, I am very much a fan of the swiss system (and consider moving there) and direct democracy wherever possible. But my point was, that a plebiscite does not change the fact, that the people are very divided themself. Also not everyone would accept those results, because they would argue, too many non white germans could vote who should not have the right etc. Some worldviews are just not compatible. My solution? I would not mind if germany breaks up into smaller states. (The Swiss system works, because it is small.) Some white, some diverse, some whatever. If possible, all still members of the EU. But many nationalists would rather have civil war instead.
knallfrosch 3y ago
Yes, that is directly related. I think the protests were a much needed morale boost for all middle-plus-left voters, but the real power is still with the swing voters that can give their vote to either the legacy parties or the AfD. The fact that many parties now woo these swing voters enfuriates much of the middle-plus-left electorate. They consider not voting for the AfD to be a no-brainer democratic duty anyway and dismiss the notion that one should entice these 25% of voters with anything. Kind of as it is with Trump. As to why the swing voters might vote for the AfD, consider that the right-most non-AfD party is the Union (CDU+CSU) of Merkel that welcomed 1mio Syrian refugees in 2015 and has, mostly passively, overseen a massive influx of Ukrainian, Syrian and Afghan migrants. There is currently no right-of-center party that is neither the AfD and can credibly claim to limit migration.
- soco 3y ago
  The solution could be a new middle-left party to talk exactly about those concerning problems, but proposing different solutions. Is there any? Because the traditionals look more like trying to minimize the points, to the success we can all see. Also because I cannot imagine the pension system for once, without a steady influx of younger immigrants - so without them Germany is heading to fresh, Macron-style problems.
patates 3y ago
As an immigrant here in Germany I wonder if I should perhaps start to think about an exit strategy if this trend continues.
- jansan 3y ago
  If you are living on social welfare, things might actually get a bit tighter in future.
  - patates 3y ago
    Far from it, I earn too much to be able to get any support from the government. Including the parental leave pay.
    - pAllain 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - MagnumOpus 3y ago
        You copy/paste these comments on every unrelated post created by immigrants. Please stop. Obviously your comment is irrelevant, your parent poster didn't migrate "without paying any cost or contributing in the form of higher taxes" but indeed pays extremely high tax rates without receiving nearly any social benefits. This finances the life styles of the (mostly) retired or underemployed voters who oppose this migration. Conflating legal economic migration with illegal immigration, asylum and/or refugee status is a foreign disinformation tactic to radicalise people against their neighbours.
- suslik 3y ago
  The answer is, unfortunately, yes, you probably should. I am in the same boat and have an expectation to receive the sharp end of the stick eventually. Not that the exit strategy is self-evident...
- stby 3y ago
  I am German without an immigration background and wonder about this, too.

by hnhg 3y ago

hutzlibu 3y ago

Yes and they likely will win in some eastern states. "The party leads in several states in eastern Germany, the region where its support is strongest — including three, Brandenburg, Saxony and Thuringia, that are slated to hold elections this fall." Which sucks, because I happen to live there. And my partner with latin american origins often experience racism here. So we are thinking of going away, but the mass rallies are giving me some hope.

shiroiuma 3y ago
Mass rallies in Berlin and Munich aren't going to do much about blatant racism in Saxony. That's a bit like an American thinking that activism in NYC is going to have a real effect on the mentality of people in rural Mississippi. The values of people in those different areas are extremely different, and the people in the economically "left behind" regions are actually going to feel even more attacked by these rallies, most likely, since they already feel like their views are being ignored.
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  There were also some rallies in saxony and more are scheduled for next weekend. Way lower in numbers of course, but it is something. And it is a wake up call for people to come together, before it is too late. "the people in the economically "left behind" regions are actually going to feel even more attacked by these rallies, most likely, since they already feel like their views are being ignored." And most of those people radicalized during Covid (there is a big intersection of anti vaxx people with the AfD). They already live in their own universe - disconnected from any source that might challenge their worldview and they made up their mind already about everything. They are comfortable with a de facto Nazi Leader (Höcke) - and yes, they complain that they are getting ignored. But sorry, I would continue to ignore their views of a racist white germany. Apart from that, sure the big politics made many misstakes and did not care about those "left behind" regions at all. And yes, imposing top down, that a quite village suddenly has to host many war traumatized immigrants - was not the way to do it. But the big politics did - and just branded every concerns as racist. That rightfully pissed people off. But being pissed off about the government is still no justification for becoming a Nazi in my opinion.
  - soco 3y ago
    The above point is, for the moment those people don't get many alternative solutions to their problems. Okay not "solutions" as what AfD proposes is not a solution, but alternative views. And it will be an uphill battle because as you noticed the neonazis ride the conspiracies wave, and that's something very difficult to fight...
  - vladvasiliu 3y ago
    I don't live in Germany, but your points seem similar to what I see happen on this side of the Rhine. But what are those people to do? Their only weapon is the ballot. I don't know how elections work over there, but over here, blank votes aren't counted. You can't vote "against" someone while at the same time not voting for someone else. Don't like Macron nor Le Pen (the runner-up in the last elections)? Tough. Your opinion doesn't count. So maybe they don't actually want the AfD in power, but hope that the incumbents get the message that they will get their asses voted out if they don't at least feign to listen. And you know that being in power is a politician's topmost priority. Calling them racists and whatnot will very probably not help "non-nazis'" case.
    - lukan 3y ago
      "Calling them racists and whatnot will very probably not help "non-nazis'" case." Well, but they overwhelmingly are racists. I should know, I grew up and live here. And I debate with them. And I try to shield my half german kids from their racism as much as possible. Of course, officially allmost no one is a racist. So there is a meme by now: "I am no racist, but .... " (followed by something clearly racists, germany needs to remain white, but of course white is also not said, but biological germans. Autochtone germans, etc. ) "Their only weapon is the ballot. I don't know how elections work over there, but over here, blank votes aren't counted." Over here neither. And I also have a hard time finding a party I could really support. And I am also pissed of at the government. I still don't vote for people, who want a new german empire, as I see no improvement here, but rather the opposite. Oh and quite many there (but not all) also dream of joining forces with Putin as he also hates multiculture and diversity. I understand the frustration that made people go into that direction - that does not mean I have to open myself up, to embrace them.

zilti 3y ago

Final wakeup call for the other parties.

DeathArrow 3y ago
So they will finally give the people what they ask for? And stop doing what the people dislike?
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  "So they will finally give the people what they ask for? " How is that possible, when the people themself are divided? For example with weapon support for Ukraine: "Some 44% believe sending Leopard 2 battle tanks to Kyiv is the wrong decision, according to the results of a survey by pollster YouGov published on Sunday. At least 41% support the German government as it plans to send the first of 18 tanks to Ukraine " https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/majority-of-germans-against-tank-jet-deliveries-to-ukraine-survey/2831659 https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/majority-of-germans-against-... And with immigration it is similar. Quite some literally want to protect germany as a white nation that speaks only german - but many don't. Many are sceptical of arab troublemakers, but otherwise like a diverse society. So where is the solution fitting everyone? What can the politicians do, to make everyone happy?
  - DeathArrow 3y ago
    >So where is the solution fitting everyone? What can the politicians do, to make everyone happy? Do it the Swiss way and ask people trough a plebiscite?
    - JodieBenitez 3y ago
      Exercising real democracy ? Are you nuts ? That would require educated citizens in the first place. No no no... elected representatives with carte blanche will do.
    - hutzlibu 3y ago
      Oh yes, I am very much a fan of the swiss system (and consider moving there) and direct democracy wherever possible. But my point was, that a plebiscite does not change the fact, that the people are very divided themself. Also not everyone would accept those results, because they would argue, too many non white germans could vote who should not have the right etc. Some worldviews are just not compatible. My solution? I would not mind if germany breaks up into smaller states. (The Swiss system works, because it is small.) Some white, some diverse, some whatever. If possible, all still members of the EU. But many nationalists would rather have civil war instead.

knallfrosch 3y ago

Yes, that is directly related. I think the protests were a much needed morale boost for all middle-plus-left voters, but the real power is still with the swing voters that can give their vote to either the legacy parties or the AfD. The fact that many parties now woo these swing voters enfuriates much of the middle-plus-left electorate. They consider not voting for the AfD to be a no-brainer democratic duty anyway and dismiss the notion that one should entice these 25% of voters with anything. Kind of as it is with Trump. As to why the swing voters might vote for the AfD, consider that the right-most non-AfD party is the Union (CDU+CSU) of Merkel that welcomed 1mio Syrian refugees in 2015 and has, mostly passively, overseen a massive influx of Ukrainian, Syrian and Afghan migrants. There is currently no right-of-center party that is neither the AfD and can credibly claim to limit migration.

soco 3y ago
The solution could be a new middle-left party to talk exactly about those concerning problems, but proposing different solutions. Is there any? Because the traditionals look more like trying to minimize the points, to the success we can all see. Also because I cannot imagine the pension system for once, without a steady influx of younger immigrants - so without them Germany is heading to fresh, Macron-style problems.

patates 3y ago

As an immigrant here in Germany I wonder if I should perhaps start to think about an exit strategy if this trend continues.

jansan 3y ago
If you are living on social welfare, things might actually get a bit tighter in future.
- patates 3y ago
  Far from it, I earn too much to be able to get any support from the government. Including the parental leave pay.
  - pAllain 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - MagnumOpus 3y ago
      You copy/paste these comments on every unrelated post created by immigrants. Please stop. Obviously your comment is irrelevant, your parent poster didn't migrate "without paying any cost or contributing in the form of higher taxes" but indeed pays extremely high tax rates without receiving nearly any social benefits. This finances the life styles of the (mostly) retired or underemployed voters who oppose this migration. Conflating legal economic migration with illegal immigration, asylum and/or refugee status is a foreign disinformation tactic to radicalise people against their neighbours.
suslik 3y ago
The answer is, unfortunately, yes, you probably should. I am in the same boat and have an expectation to receive the sharp end of the stick eventually. Not that the exit strategy is self-evident...
stby 3y ago
I am German without an immigration background and wonder about this, too.