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Is exploiting tax loopholes really unethical? Some would argue that the government is the biggest waste of money there is. I'm not saying that's my belief, but

by swombat 15y ago

Is exploiting tax loopholes really unethical? Some would argue that the government is the biggest waste of money there is. I'm not saying that's my belief, but let's entertain that thought for a minute. If you believe that the government wastes most, say 95%, of its money on stupid things that should never receive a dollar from anyone (like the war in Iraq, to pick a random one), and you believe that you personally can do more with that money in terms of "making the world a better place", then it follows that paying as little tax as possible is the ethical choice. Let's take an example: Bill Gates. Bill Gates is currently the second richest man on earth, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbes_list_of_billionaires http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbes_list_of_billionaires . Did he use all those tax schemes on his way there? You bet your bottom dollar he did. Now he's using this money directly to solve problems like curing Africa of Malaria. Do you think he's using that money more efficiently than a government programme would? I'd bet on that too. Would the world be better off if the US government had $20b more and Bill Gates had $20b less? I don't think so. I think Bill Gates can use the money much more intelligently than the US government ever could. So, is it unethical to pour less money into the pointless furnace of wasteful government? I'm not saying this point of view is the only point of view out there. But to declare tax avoidance outright "unethical" is a failure in perspective.

bicknergseng 15y ago
Fabulous argument for benevolent dictatorships.
jbooth 15y ago
It's unethical because we're all on the hook for the money the government spends. That's the social contract. If you think the war in Iraq was a big waste of money (as I do), then great, lobby against that. But once the decision's made, we're all on the hook for the money and wiggling out is akin to welching on a bet or defaulting on a loan when you have the money to pay. Funnily enough, most of the people who complain about "wasteful government spending" were the the loudest advocates of the Iraq war and the expanded modern security state. It turns out everything became way more wasteful and tyrannical on a single day in January 2009.
- clarky07 15y ago
  There is nothing unethical about following laws as they are written. The thing to lobby against is the absurd tax code we have in the US. If the tax code wasn't 16k pages we wouldn't have this "problem." You could put all the information needed on 1 page, and we wouldn't have to read these stories in the news anymore.
  - jbooth 15y ago
    Nothing unethical about following laws as they are written? That's a silly absolute. What about the nuremberg trials? There's all sorts of unethical things you can do legally, and if you have a bunch of lobbyists working to change the law in your favor, there's even more.
    - clarky07 15y ago
      That's a pretty big stretch of what I was talking about going from taking a deduction to murdering people. Would you feel better if I said there is nothing unethical about following our current tax laws? As it is the rich pay far more in taxes than what they make relative to the total so I have no problems with them working to minimize their tax bill just as I do. They simply have more resources with which to minimize their bill. They still pay far far more in taxes.
      - jbooth 15y ago
        Warren Buffett and his secretary would like a word with you. My income has FICA and Medicare taken out of about 90% of the total, those taxes are capped. If I made more, I'd be paying less as a % of income for entitlements. My income is taxed at the personal income rate as opposed to the silly-low capital gains rate. Our tax code taxes the poor almost nothing, and the rich at a smaller % of their incomes than the middle class. So the middle class is paying a huge % of the tax burden, relative to their incomes. Then someone goes "Hey, look, the poor pay almost nothing!" and people get mad about the injustice.
        15y ago
mattmanser 15y ago
Unfortunately you've missed the point of why it is unethical, everyone else has to pay more to support your avoidance instead. If they paid their way then the overall tax rate would be lower for everyone, instead of just for the rich. The irony being they're the ones who need it the least. So effectively Bill Gates made the decision to make everyone else pay more tax so that he could go and cure Malaria in Africa. Causing babies to die in America instead. His tax avoidance can be indirectly linked to other people's deaths. That wasn't his decision to make and was unethical. It's stealing but in a weird way. And by people who don't actually need to steal but just do it because they can.
- beagle3 15y ago
  > If they paid their way then the overall tax rate would be lower for everyone, instead of just for the rich. That is the truth in theory. In practice, the US federal government these days borrows 30% of the money it spends; the percentage has been growing through the years. If they paid their fair share of taxes, then either (a) the government would borrow less -- or, more likely (b) the government would spend more (and the population in general you may or may not be the beneficiary). The "if you pay less taxes I pay more taxes" only works in a closed system. IIRC, the last time the US wasn't, at the end of the day, a pure borrower is in the '70s. edit: fixed 50% to 30%. There's an underlying philosophical discussion, but I'll just use the official government number.
- olalonde 15y ago
  Uh? What law says you have to pay more because some people legally avoid taxes?
- clarky07 15y ago
  The rich not only pay far more in taxes by virtue of making more, they also pay more in relation to how much they make. The top 1% earns 17% of the income, and pays 37% of the taxes.[1] It's complete BS to say that Bill Gates following the tax code is unethical. [1]http://www.heritage.org/federalbudget/top10-percent-income-earners http://www.heritage.org/federalbudget/top10-percent-income-e...
- swombat 15y ago
roc 15y ago
> "Would the world be better off if the US government had $20b more and Bill Gates had $20b less?" It's not about what Gates personally gives or what Buffet might personally write a check for, if he feels he isn't paying enough. The discussion is about the hundreds of billions in aggregate that corporations and the wealthy are not paying. And we certainly aren't seeing hundreds of billions in Gates-style charity from corporations and the other super-wealthy. Consider also that Gates fabulous charity is still small compared to the aggregate donation of Americans. His charity is notable only for having come from a single person and for his ability to therefore set priorities directly. It's not remotely clear that aggregated wealth, even if it were to always result in Gates'-style donations, results in more net charity than if it were taxed, spent and thus diffused back into the economy where the rest of America might earn it and donate to charity in smaller individual amounts. Government tax revenue, after all, does not get destroyed. It gets spent. Perhaps inefficiently, but spent nonetheless. And say what you will about cronyism, you'd quickly find yourself in the rhetorical weeds if you tried to argue that wealth generated off government inefficiency or misdirected priority is somehow tainted and thus can't be expected to produce charity from those who make their living from it. Not when a cursory glance over government revenue flows creates a list of the largest US government contractors and vendors that looks almost exactly like the list of corporations and wealthy individuals we're trying to excuse for their charity. (Edit: cleaned up some phrasing)
Retric 15y ago
Suppose 95% of what the Bill Gates foundation does is pure waste, should we raise taxes so his money is better spent? If you assume your correct you can make anything sound reasonable. However, despite popular opinion the US government is reasonable efficient given it's size, it's the goals that are poorly thought out not it's methods. If you want to suggest otherwise you need to compare total income with total output and compare with more than just one rich dude while ignoring people who buy 80+ million dollar Yacht's and rarely use them.
- beagle3 15y ago
  > the US government is reasonable efficient given it's size, Do you have a reference for that? Genuinely interested. I've dealt only with a small part of the US and State government, and all of those were horrendously inefficient (e.g., refusing electronic filing of documents; turns out that I type it in on my computer, print it onto the pre-made form, send it by regular mail; someone at the other end manually types it all in. That happens with quite a few US government forms).
  - Retric 15y ago
    The US government does a lot of different things most of which hard hard to compare with equivalent private sector work. Still, Social Security and Medicare are huge and have reasonable private sector comparisons. Social Security Administration overhead ~1% http://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/admin.html http://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/admin.html Compared to 401k http://www.perfectswindle.com/?p=109 http://www.perfectswindle.com/?p=109 vs ~20% of 401k payouts go to administrative overhead. Medicare vs. Private insurance http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/07/administrative_costs_in_health.html http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/07/administ... PS: You can argue that SS should include IRS overhead, but you need to reach into a lot of other government programs or argue they should run 401k style programs to close that gap. Medicare pays less in overhead and less for the actual procedures there is some arguments in relation to work done, but they are are not obviously worse.
    - beagle3 15y ago
SpiderX 15y ago
I think the fact is that we are in debt so far that we can barely afford to pay the interest payments. Now, there are two ways out of it. We can pay our debts, or we can dissolve the government, in which case, our debtors will hold the american people (and not the government) responsible. If you want to see what mountains of debt will do to a country, just look at Haiti. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt_of_Haiti http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt_of_Haiti Apple, Microsoft, and Google should pay their fair share. Unless I can claim all my income in Ireland, and store all my cash in Barbados, they shouldn't be able to do it either.

by swombat 15y ago

bicknergseng 15y ago

Fabulous argument for benevolent dictatorships.

jbooth 15y ago

It's unethical because we're all on the hook for the money the government spends. That's the social contract. If you think the war in Iraq was a big waste of money (as I do), then great, lobby against that. But once the decision's made, we're all on the hook for the money and wiggling out is akin to welching on a bet or defaulting on a loan when you have the money to pay. Funnily enough, most of the people who complain about "wasteful government spending" were the the loudest advocates of the Iraq war and the expanded modern security state. It turns out everything became way more wasteful and tyrannical on a single day in January 2009.

clarky07 15y ago
There is nothing unethical about following laws as they are written. The thing to lobby against is the absurd tax code we have in the US. If the tax code wasn't 16k pages we wouldn't have this "problem." You could put all the information needed on 1 page, and we wouldn't have to read these stories in the news anymore.
- jbooth 15y ago
  Nothing unethical about following laws as they are written? That's a silly absolute. What about the nuremberg trials? There's all sorts of unethical things you can do legally, and if you have a bunch of lobbyists working to change the law in your favor, there's even more.
  - clarky07 15y ago
    That's a pretty big stretch of what I was talking about going from taking a deduction to murdering people. Would you feel better if I said there is nothing unethical about following our current tax laws? As it is the rich pay far more in taxes than what they make relative to the total so I have no problems with them working to minimize their tax bill just as I do. They simply have more resources with which to minimize their bill. They still pay far far more in taxes.
    - jbooth 15y ago
      Warren Buffett and his secretary would like a word with you. My income has FICA and Medicare taken out of about 90% of the total, those taxes are capped. If I made more, I'd be paying less as a % of income for entitlements. My income is taxed at the personal income rate as opposed to the silly-low capital gains rate. Our tax code taxes the poor almost nothing, and the rich at a smaller % of their incomes than the middle class. So the middle class is paying a huge % of the tax burden, relative to their incomes. Then someone goes "Hey, look, the poor pay almost nothing!" and people get mad about the injustice.
      - 15y ago

mattmanser 15y ago

Unfortunately you've missed the point of why it is unethical, everyone else has to pay more to support your avoidance instead. If they paid their way then the overall tax rate would be lower for everyone, instead of just for the rich. The irony being they're the ones who need it the least. So effectively Bill Gates made the decision to make everyone else pay more tax so that he could go and cure Malaria in Africa. Causing babies to die in America instead. His tax avoidance can be indirectly linked to other people's deaths. That wasn't his decision to make and was unethical. It's stealing but in a weird way. And by people who don't actually need to steal but just do it because they can.

beagle3 15y ago
> If they paid their way then the overall tax rate would be lower for everyone, instead of just for the rich. That is the truth in theory. In practice, the US federal government these days borrows 30% of the money it spends; the percentage has been growing through the years. If they paid their fair share of taxes, then either (a) the government would borrow less -- or, more likely (b) the government would spend more (and the population in general you may or may not be the beneficiary). The "if you pay less taxes I pay more taxes" only works in a closed system. IIRC, the last time the US wasn't, at the end of the day, a pure borrower is in the '70s. edit: fixed 50% to 30%. There's an underlying philosophical discussion, but I'll just use the official government number.
olalonde 15y ago
Uh? What law says you have to pay more because some people legally avoid taxes?
clarky07 15y ago
The rich not only pay far more in taxes by virtue of making more, they also pay more in relation to how much they make. The top 1% earns 17% of the income, and pays 37% of the taxes.[1] It's complete BS to say that Bill Gates following the tax code is unethical. [1]http://www.heritage.org/federalbudget/top10-percent-income-earners http://www.heritage.org/federalbudget/top10-percent-income-e...
swombat 15y ago

roc 15y ago

> "Would the world be better off if the US government had $20b more and Bill Gates had $20b less?" It's not about what Gates personally gives or what Buffet might personally write a check for, if he feels he isn't paying enough. The discussion is about the hundreds of billions in aggregate that corporations and the wealthy are not paying. And we certainly aren't seeing hundreds of billions in Gates-style charity from corporations and the other super-wealthy. Consider also that Gates fabulous charity is still small compared to the aggregate donation of Americans. His charity is notable only for having come from a single person and for his ability to therefore set priorities directly. It's not remotely clear that aggregated wealth, even if it were to always result in Gates'-style donations, results in more net charity than if it were taxed, spent and thus diffused back into the economy where the rest of America might earn it and donate to charity in smaller individual amounts. Government tax revenue, after all, does not get destroyed. It gets spent. Perhaps inefficiently, but spent nonetheless. And say what you will about cronyism, you'd quickly find yourself in the rhetorical weeds if you tried to argue that wealth generated off government inefficiency or misdirected priority is somehow tainted and thus can't be expected to produce charity from those who make their living from it. Not when a cursory glance over government revenue flows creates a list of the largest US government contractors and vendors that looks almost exactly like the list of corporations and wealthy individuals we're trying to excuse for their charity. (Edit: cleaned up some phrasing)

Retric 15y ago

Suppose 95% of what the Bill Gates foundation does is pure waste, should we raise taxes so his money is better spent? If you assume your correct you can make anything sound reasonable. However, despite popular opinion the US government is reasonable efficient given it's size, it's the goals that are poorly thought out not it's methods. If you want to suggest otherwise you need to compare total income with total output and compare with more than just one rich dude while ignoring people who buy 80+ million dollar Yacht's and rarely use them.

beagle3 15y ago
> the US government is reasonable efficient given it's size, Do you have a reference for that? Genuinely interested. I've dealt only with a small part of the US and State government, and all of those were horrendously inefficient (e.g., refusing electronic filing of documents; turns out that I type it in on my computer, print it onto the pre-made form, send it by regular mail; someone at the other end manually types it all in. That happens with quite a few US government forms).
- Retric 15y ago
  The US government does a lot of different things most of which hard hard to compare with equivalent private sector work. Still, Social Security and Medicare are huge and have reasonable private sector comparisons. Social Security Administration overhead ~1% http://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/admin.html http://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/admin.html Compared to 401k http://www.perfectswindle.com/?p=109 http://www.perfectswindle.com/?p=109 vs ~20% of 401k payouts go to administrative overhead. Medicare vs. Private insurance http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/07/administrative_costs_in_health.html http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/07/administ... PS: You can argue that SS should include IRS overhead, but you need to reach into a lot of other government programs or argue they should run 401k style programs to close that gap. Medicare pays less in overhead and less for the actual procedures there is some arguments in relation to work done, but they are are not obviously worse.
  - beagle3 15y ago

SpiderX 15y ago

I think the fact is that we are in debt so far that we can barely afford to pay the interest payments. Now, there are two ways out of it. We can pay our debts, or we can dissolve the government, in which case, our debtors will hold the american people (and not the government) responsible. If you want to see what mountains of debt will do to a country, just look at Haiti. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt_of_Haiti http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt_of_Haiti Apple, Microsoft, and Google should pay their fair share. Unless I can claim all my income in Ireland, and store all my cash in Barbados, they shouldn't be able to do it either.