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I don't know, it's another chip in the foundation, straw on the camel's back. While none of this is new to me, and was one of the reasons I left academia for in

I don't know, it's another chip in the foundation, straw on the camel's back. While none of this is new to me, and was one of the reasons I left academia for industry a very long time ago, the general population are becoming increasingly distrustful of the academics, and trust once lost is very difficult to get back.

CobrastanJorji 3y ago
Yeah. While these specific professors or schools or research institutes may not see any immediate consequences, the general opinion of universities has been increasingly taking a beating. That's a dangerous thing in a place where there's an everpresent conservative drumbeat of anti-intellectualism in general and the liberal elites in their ivy towers. I'm not sure what the ultimate consequences will be for US universities might be if this course continues, but it won't be good.
- tastyfreeze 3y ago
  > conservative drumbeat of anti-intellectualism What does that even mean?
  - helf 3y ago
    [dead]
  - andirk 3y ago
    Anti-intellectualism is a very real thing in this country, and mostly found in ultra conservative circles. For example, it is VERY popular at certain rallies to believe that 1) Obama is still running the show behind the scenes as a communist, AND 2) Donald won in 2020, AND 3) Donald is the current sitting prez, AND 4) that the January 6th hilarity was both 4a) a psy-ops by the then Speaker AND 4b) those brave patriots that were involved are political prisoners. These are ANDs, not ORs. They are often all believed at once. Anti-intellectualism and a distaste for upper education in general because it "indoctrinates" is not fringe. Keep in mind no one in power of any political party actually believes ANY of that but it is one of the popular drum beats.
    - cjbgkagh 3y ago
      Q Anon is a modern incarnation of the Soviet counter intelligence program ‘Operation Trust’ when combined with the deliberate Pied Piper strategy it should be understood that the craziness of these people is something that was intentionally done to them by cynical political operatives.
    - tastyfreeze 3y ago
      Painting all conservatives with the same brush as "ultra conservative" (whatever that means) is disingenuous. Idiots abound in all walks of life. Better to judge individuals than to judge a whole group by the actions of a few. Really, it reads like you need to talk to more real people. If I were to watch videos of blue haired liberals all day I might get the impression that all liberals are that way. That just isn't true. It is an extreme that is not representative of the group as a whole. The liberal/conservative line isn't as distinct as media makes it out to be. Most people hold views that belong in both camps.
      - andirk 3y ago
        I agree, hence said "it is VERY popular at certain rallies". The "ultra-conservative" label = a huge % of that party. No assumptions whatsoever about people who believe in economic Darwinism, lower corporate taxes because the ultra ultra rich earned it, no welfare state because bootstraps, etc. The other side of the aisle is rarely an opposing party. Outside USA it's common knowledge, inside USA they're communists somehow. The parties work hand-in-hand to protect the tippy top (remember the overlord unelected barely official Parliamentarian when the other side had House, Senate, Prez in 2020 who stopped any progress, similar in 2009). It's mostly for show. The topic I brought up is _anti-intellectualism_ which is championed by one side far moreso than the other. We're speaking of the weight and desire and scandal around upper education devolving for various reasons. I mentioned one. What is your opinion?
- AmericanChopper 3y ago
  I guess you can choose between worrying about the influence all these corrupt, ivory tower intellectuals have on society, or worry about them getting caught for it…
- cjbgkagh 3y ago
  The problem with the left having a stranglehold on culture, and especially academic culture, is that its sacred cows are left un molested to the point they forget they have any. Healthy at any size is a personal favorite because of how immediately obvious it is false to even the most causal of observers yet academics and doctors will line up to preach that ridiculous gospel. When people see those who have died from Covid while being clearly morbidly obese being described in the news media as perfectly healthy with no preexisting conditions - it does beg a few questions.
p-e-w 3y ago
The "foundation" of Harvard is institutional power. Academic excellence is at best a consequence of that. I can guarantee that Harvard's many powerful alumni aren't going to let that institutional power be eroded, regardless of how bad academic standards ever become. And they control sufficiently many other institutions to ensure that Harvard retains its shine, at least to the outside world.
- ryandrake 3y ago
  What’s the end state? Harvard eventually doesn’t even have to provide an education. It’s role is as a manufacturer of prestige. It selects N people a year, deems those people “elite,” and those people end up employed in elite investment banks and consulting companies because they were deemed elite by an institution with that power. Those elites then go on to recruit the next year worth of elites. I mean, this already is happening in name brand education institutions. The value is all in the name and network of fellow elites, and the education itself is largely irrelevant. I’d name schools, but I bet a lot of HN readership got their first lucrative FAANG jobs based entirely on their attendance at one of these institutions…
  - jackcosgrove 3y ago
    The end state is very close to the starting state, unfortunately. Bureaucracies that select their own incoming ranks are very, very hard to reform from the outside. The liberal reforms of the 18th and 19th centuries such as checks and balances were devised to counteract this tendency. Many universities predate these reforms.

CobrastanJorji 3y ago

Yeah. While these specific professors or schools or research institutes may not see any immediate consequences, the general opinion of universities has been increasingly taking a beating. That's a dangerous thing in a place where there's an everpresent conservative drumbeat of anti-intellectualism in general and the liberal elites in their ivy towers. I'm not sure what the ultimate consequences will be for US universities might be if this course continues, but it won't be good.

tastyfreeze 3y ago
> conservative drumbeat of anti-intellectualism What does that even mean?
- helf 3y ago
  [dead]
- andirk 3y ago
  Anti-intellectualism is a very real thing in this country, and mostly found in ultra conservative circles. For example, it is VERY popular at certain rallies to believe that 1) Obama is still running the show behind the scenes as a communist, AND 2) Donald won in 2020, AND 3) Donald is the current sitting prez, AND 4) that the January 6th hilarity was both 4a) a psy-ops by the then Speaker AND 4b) those brave patriots that were involved are political prisoners. These are ANDs, not ORs. They are often all believed at once. Anti-intellectualism and a distaste for upper education in general because it "indoctrinates" is not fringe. Keep in mind no one in power of any political party actually believes ANY of that but it is one of the popular drum beats.
  - cjbgkagh 3y ago
    Q Anon is a modern incarnation of the Soviet counter intelligence program ‘Operation Trust’ when combined with the deliberate Pied Piper strategy it should be understood that the craziness of these people is something that was intentionally done to them by cynical political operatives.
  - tastyfreeze 3y ago
    Painting all conservatives with the same brush as "ultra conservative" (whatever that means) is disingenuous. Idiots abound in all walks of life. Better to judge individuals than to judge a whole group by the actions of a few. Really, it reads like you need to talk to more real people. If I were to watch videos of blue haired liberals all day I might get the impression that all liberals are that way. That just isn't true. It is an extreme that is not representative of the group as a whole. The liberal/conservative line isn't as distinct as media makes it out to be. Most people hold views that belong in both camps.
    - andirk 3y ago
      I agree, hence said "it is VERY popular at certain rallies". The "ultra-conservative" label = a huge % of that party. No assumptions whatsoever about people who believe in economic Darwinism, lower corporate taxes because the ultra ultra rich earned it, no welfare state because bootstraps, etc. The other side of the aisle is rarely an opposing party. Outside USA it's common knowledge, inside USA they're communists somehow. The parties work hand-in-hand to protect the tippy top (remember the overlord unelected barely official Parliamentarian when the other side had House, Senate, Prez in 2020 who stopped any progress, similar in 2009). It's mostly for show. The topic I brought up is _anti-intellectualism_ which is championed by one side far moreso than the other. We're speaking of the weight and desire and scandal around upper education devolving for various reasons. I mentioned one. What is your opinion?
AmericanChopper 3y ago
I guess you can choose between worrying about the influence all these corrupt, ivory tower intellectuals have on society, or worry about them getting caught for it…
cjbgkagh 3y ago
The problem with the left having a stranglehold on culture, and especially academic culture, is that its sacred cows are left un molested to the point they forget they have any. Healthy at any size is a personal favorite because of how immediately obvious it is false to even the most causal of observers yet academics and doctors will line up to preach that ridiculous gospel. When people see those who have died from Covid while being clearly morbidly obese being described in the news media as perfectly healthy with no preexisting conditions - it does beg a few questions.

p-e-w 3y ago

The "foundation" of Harvard is institutional power. Academic excellence is at best a consequence of that. I can guarantee that Harvard's many powerful alumni aren't going to let that institutional power be eroded, regardless of how bad academic standards ever become. And they control sufficiently many other institutions to ensure that Harvard retains its shine, at least to the outside world.

ryandrake 3y ago
What’s the end state? Harvard eventually doesn’t even have to provide an education. It’s role is as a manufacturer of prestige. It selects N people a year, deems those people “elite,” and those people end up employed in elite investment banks and consulting companies because they were deemed elite by an institution with that power. Those elites then go on to recruit the next year worth of elites. I mean, this already is happening in name brand education institutions. The value is all in the name and network of fellow elites, and the education itself is largely irrelevant. I’d name schools, but I bet a lot of HN readership got their first lucrative FAANG jobs based entirely on their attendance at one of these institutions…
- jackcosgrove 3y ago
  The end state is very close to the starting state, unfortunately. Bureaucracies that select their own incoming ranks are very, very hard to reform from the outside. The liberal reforms of the 18th and 19th centuries such as checks and balances were devised to counteract this tendency. Many universities predate these reforms.