5 ms·

I personally don't think making a very large amount of devices completely obsolete is the best thing, from an environmental standpoint. Call me a dumb hippie.

by 2024throwaway 3y ago

colechristensen 3y ago
Pass laws requiring long term hardware support and open source code for unsupported devices.
- kazinator 3y ago
  ... and unlimited flash space for forever upgrades!
- kazinator 3y ago
  ... and unlimited flash space for accepting larger and larger upgrades, forever!
  - BenjiWiebe 3y ago
    If it's open source I'll delete 90% of the manufacturer provided telemetry/tracking/anti-features and use 1/20th of that free space to add the feature I want.
- supertrope 3y ago
  One response to EU recycling mandates is to just pull out of those markets. Some website operators just block the EU as it's easier than complying with privacy regulations. When new regulations per the USA's Americans with Disabilities Act mandated captions, a few MOOCs just yanked their videos.
deadbunny 3y ago
Which devices don't support IPv6 at this point?
- 2024throwaway 3y ago
  Smart sprinklers. Industrial equipment. CCTVs.
  - ianburrell 3y ago
    Do those access the Czech government website?
    - 2024throwaway 3y ago
      I was speaking to sun setting IPv4 in general. That said, I have to imagine that there probably are plenty of those devices that do access Czech internal services at least.
      - ianburrell 3y ago
        IPv4 will be around for a long time. Nobody will care if it is running on internal network. Or quadruple NATed. There are enough IPv4 addresses for sites to have them. But not enough for every user.
      - nerdbert 3y ago
        > I was speaking to sun setting IPv4 in general. It's 2024 and Fidonet still works. Nobody's sunsetting IPv4. It will fade into obscurity on its own as IPv6 adoption increases and IPv4 addresses become increasingly hard to get, as it should.
    - i-use-nixos-btw 3y ago
      police knock on the door “DAD, YOUR SPRINKLERS ARE HACKING THE RECYCLING COLLECTION TIMETABLES AGAIN” (spend enough time around places like this, though, and one could easily imagine this being a thing in 2032)
  - mianos 3y ago
    As an aside, I notice a lot of the recent commits to the ESP32 repo are for ipv6 fixes. It already works in the tasmota esp32 builds on devices at my place. This said, by then, maybe the core OS will not be metal, but Linux on all these device and we'll get top ipv6 support. More likely, in 2032, well have a bunch of crap, built from very old SOCs running Linux 2.4.
voidwtf 3y ago
Those devices won't necessarily be made obsolete, there are solutions for proxying ipv4 -> ipv6 and I think we'll see many consumer routers enabling those features by default for devices that do not support ipv6.
Avamander 3y ago
IPv6 support existed in even Windows XP, if not older. Things without IPv6 support are already obsolete.
- jeroenhd 3y ago
  A bunch of IoT hardware and other microcontroller-based hardware has IPv6 support, but that support is often disabled to save a couple of kilobytes of flash memory. You can buy all kinds of hardware today that lacks IPv6 support. Of course, if that hardware needs to access IPv6 services, they might as well disable IPv4+ICMP+DHCPv4 support and enable the IPv6 size in firmware, and probably get similar savings. To be honest, I'm not sure why companies still ship ESP32-like hardware with that little storage given how cheap flash storage is, but these optimisations are more common than one might think or hope.
  - gmuslera 3y ago
    That is basically planned obsolescence. The world (except a few regions) is essentially out of IPv4 addresses.
    - jeroenhd 3y ago
      There are plenty of IPv4 addresses for server use, and IPv4 in client networks is easily accomplished using whatever form of NAT you prefer. DNS64+NAT64 will work fine for IoT crap (not like your thermostat is validating DNSSEC), and a whole bunch of ISPs rely on DS-Lite+CGNAT to allow IPv4 connectivity over their essentially IPv6-only backbone already. Publicly reachable IPv4 on the consumer side is dying rapidly, but IPv4 LANs and servers can still work exactly because of the versatility IPv6 allows.
    - msm_ 3y ago
      As it has been since 2011, and yet here we are.
  - loup-vaillant 3y ago
    > A bunch of IoT hardware and other microcontroller-based hardware has IPv6 support, but that support is often disabled to save a couple of kilobytes of flash memory. Wait a minute, kilobytes? That much? It’s not like one needs to duplicate the entire IP layer, it seems to me the only changing parts are parsing & generating the packets.
Twirrim 3y ago
IPv6 has been supported for ~20 years. Not many devices in any regular use these days with network support, lack IPv6. That pool of devices will be almost entirely gone in 8 years when this is due.
- 2024throwaway 3y ago
  I think we simply have different definitions of "devices". I'm not talking about just phones, tablets, and laptops.

I personally don't think making a very large amount of devices completely obsolete is the best thing, from an environmental standpoint. Call me a dumb hippie.

colechristensen 3y ago

Pass laws requiring long term hardware support and open source code for unsupported devices.

kazinator 3y ago
... and unlimited flash space for forever upgrades!
kazinator 3y ago
... and unlimited flash space for accepting larger and larger upgrades, forever!
- BenjiWiebe 3y ago
  If it's open source I'll delete 90% of the manufacturer provided telemetry/tracking/anti-features and use 1/20th of that free space to add the feature I want.
supertrope 3y ago
One response to EU recycling mandates is to just pull out of those markets. Some website operators just block the EU as it's easier than complying with privacy regulations. When new regulations per the USA's Americans with Disabilities Act mandated captions, a few MOOCs just yanked their videos.

deadbunny 3y ago

Which devices don't support IPv6 at this point?

2024throwaway 3y ago
Smart sprinklers. Industrial equipment. CCTVs.
- ianburrell 3y ago
  Do those access the Czech government website?
  - 2024throwaway 3y ago
    I was speaking to sun setting IPv4 in general. That said, I have to imagine that there probably are plenty of those devices that do access Czech internal services at least.
    - ianburrell 3y ago
      IPv4 will be around for a long time. Nobody will care if it is running on internal network. Or quadruple NATed. There are enough IPv4 addresses for sites to have them. But not enough for every user.
    - nerdbert 3y ago
      > I was speaking to sun setting IPv4 in general. It's 2024 and Fidonet still works. Nobody's sunsetting IPv4. It will fade into obscurity on its own as IPv6 adoption increases and IPv4 addresses become increasingly hard to get, as it should.
  - i-use-nixos-btw 3y ago
    police knock on the door “DAD, YOUR SPRINKLERS ARE HACKING THE RECYCLING COLLECTION TIMETABLES AGAIN” (spend enough time around places like this, though, and one could easily imagine this being a thing in 2032)
- mianos 3y ago
  As an aside, I notice a lot of the recent commits to the ESP32 repo are for ipv6 fixes. It already works in the tasmota esp32 builds on devices at my place. This said, by then, maybe the core OS will not be metal, but Linux on all these device and we'll get top ipv6 support. More likely, in 2032, well have a bunch of crap, built from very old SOCs running Linux 2.4.

voidwtf 3y ago

Those devices won't necessarily be made obsolete, there are solutions for proxying ipv4 -> ipv6 and I think we'll see many consumer routers enabling those features by default for devices that do not support ipv6.

Avamander 3y ago

IPv6 support existed in even Windows XP, if not older. Things without IPv6 support are already obsolete.

jeroenhd 3y ago
A bunch of IoT hardware and other microcontroller-based hardware has IPv6 support, but that support is often disabled to save a couple of kilobytes of flash memory. You can buy all kinds of hardware today that lacks IPv6 support. Of course, if that hardware needs to access IPv6 services, they might as well disable IPv4+ICMP+DHCPv4 support and enable the IPv6 size in firmware, and probably get similar savings. To be honest, I'm not sure why companies still ship ESP32-like hardware with that little storage given how cheap flash storage is, but these optimisations are more common than one might think or hope.
- gmuslera 3y ago
  That is basically planned obsolescence. The world (except a few regions) is essentially out of IPv4 addresses.
  - jeroenhd 3y ago
    There are plenty of IPv4 addresses for server use, and IPv4 in client networks is easily accomplished using whatever form of NAT you prefer. DNS64+NAT64 will work fine for IoT crap (not like your thermostat is validating DNSSEC), and a whole bunch of ISPs rely on DS-Lite+CGNAT to allow IPv4 connectivity over their essentially IPv6-only backbone already. Publicly reachable IPv4 on the consumer side is dying rapidly, but IPv4 LANs and servers can still work exactly because of the versatility IPv6 allows.
  - msm_ 3y ago
    As it has been since 2011, and yet here we are.
- loup-vaillant 3y ago
  > A bunch of IoT hardware and other microcontroller-based hardware has IPv6 support, but that support is often disabled to save a couple of kilobytes of flash memory. Wait a minute, kilobytes? That much? It’s not like one needs to duplicate the entire IP layer, it seems to me the only changing parts are parsing & generating the packets.

Twirrim 3y ago

IPv6 has been supported for ~20 years. Not many devices in any regular use these days with network support, lack IPv6. That pool of devices will be almost entirely gone in 8 years when this is due.

2024throwaway 3y ago
I think we simply have different definitions of "devices". I'm not talking about just phones, tablets, and laptops.