7 ms·

yeah, this logic makes sense to me i just have no idea how you begin to create a global system of "generic parts" beyond screws and bolts in a world of globali

by ikesau 3y ago

yeah, this logic makes sense to me i just have no idea how you begin to create a global system of "generic parts" beyond screws and bolts in a world of globalized supply chains, with specialized production in every country. but i also have no experience in manufacturing or repair. i'd love to hear if there are any successful case studies on the subject

jfim 3y ago
There are definitely some products for which it would be doable, for example Midea makes a lot of the microwave oven models sold in the US.
lelanthran 3y ago
> i just have no idea how you begin to create a global system of "generic parts" beyond screws and bolts in a world of globalized supply chains, with specialized production in every country. Older cars were. Manufacturers never designed their own brake pads, they picked a caliper design that closely fit an existing wheel. Carburetors? Just fit one from a carburetor manufacturer (weber, etc). Steering racks, balljoints ... many fit multiple brands. Alternators, radiators, various water tanks ... all from a common parts manufacturer, then used in several brands. Thermostats used to be a common design too. Hell, they don't even do their own transmissions - just get a ZF-whatever. When Hyundai launched their gen-1 Elantra ~1990, it came with a Mitsubishi engine. Wheel bearings, CV joints - one design fit many different brands. The repairability of older cars was amazing in retrospect. Today it's different - you are unlikely to find brake pads from a Ford that fits a Toyota. The companies spent extra money on design, to make that internal part significantly different, then extra money on tooling to actually build it, just so that you cannot buy a replacement unless its from them.
- HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
  > just so that you cannot buy a replacement Conspiracy theories aside, the reason is more likely that by designing the part themselves, for a common set of applications at that manufacturer the cost is far lower than designing the rest of the car around the part. IOW: I have 1 cubic foot available for an assembly. I can custom design an assembly for the best performance I can get in that space, or I can redesign the engine compartment to get more than 1 ft^3 of space to fit the off the shelf part into.
  - petsfed 3y ago
    My experience is that, because of concerns around single-point supply chain failures, most good design operations try to use off-the-shelf components as much as possible, and only custom manufacture that which cannot be purchased externally and still achieve the desired performance. Fitment is one of the factors, but fitment is itself dictated by a lot of things (aesthetics, ergonomics, safety standards, etc etc) that factor into the overall design. One could argue that Lamborghini could just drop a Ford Triton V10 into the Huracan and call it a day (it would save tens of thousands of dollars per car), but would that allow the rest of the car to still look like it does? Perform like it does? Enshrining right-to-repair into law is, in my opinion, a pretty good way to make sure that field-repairability is factored into the design. But I don't think its productive to force manufacturers to use a particular design technique to achieve that requirement. That hobbles their ability to actually deliver on their design.
    - lelanthran 3y ago
      > One could argue that Lamborghini could just drop a Ford Triton V10 into the Huracan and call it a day (it would save tens of thousands of dollars per car), but would that allow the rest of the car to still look like it does? Perform like it does? Well, they did drop an Audi engine in one of their cars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamborghini_Urus#Powertrain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamborghini_Urus#Powertrain
- sokoloff 3y ago
  But I can trivially easily buy replacement brake pads from any number of manufacturers. Even for a Lexus LFA (limited production supercar), I can buy pads from Bendix, FVP, Proline, and Wagner [and that's just what RockAuto carries]. For a more pedestrian 2020 Camry Hybrid, I have my choice of 57 different offerings from 13 different brands (covering both front and rear axles). > The companies spent extra money on design, to make that internal part significantly different, then extra money on tooling to actually build it, just so that you cannot buy a replacement unless its from them. Note that none of those were branded as Toyota/Lexus original parts, nor sold by them. If they did all that design work in order to capture spare parts sales, they forgot to do the second part of that strategy.
  - lelanthran 3y ago
    > But I can trivially easily buy replacement brake pads from any number of manufacturers. Even for a Lexus LFA (limited production supercar), I can buy pads from Bendix, FVP, Proline, and Wagner [and that's just what RockAuto carries]. My point isn't that aftermarket manufacturers stepped in, my point is that, with old cars, the design was close to, if not identical to, an existing caliper, even if that was from a different manufacturer. Maybe it was because many manufacturers didn't design or manufacture their own calipers - it was done by bendix, et al. Now they spend extra money designing their own, often with no obvious benefit. > Note that none of those were branded as Toyota/Lexus original parts, nor sold by them. If they did all that design work in order to capture spare parts sales, they forgot to do the second part of that strategy. That's only the brake pads bit. I mentioned quite a few other components, too.
    - sokoloff 3y ago
      Poke around RockAuto. For a 2020 Camry Hybrid (chosen randomly), of your list of parts, the following are all available from multiple non-Toyota suppliers: Steering tie rod ends (the part that tends to wear), balljoints, radiators*, coolant expansion tank*, washer fluid reservoir*, thermostats, Wheel bearings, CV joints (sold as full axles) https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/toyota,2020,camry,2.5l+l4+electric/gas,3445373 https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/toyota,2020,camry,2.5l+l... * Part not from RockAuto, but available from several other aftermarket suppliers I couldn't find an alternator for the hybrid, but I'm not sure if it has one, or if charging is part of the HSD. It's available for the non-hybrid, of course. I turn all the wrenches on our family cars. It's extremely rare that I have to go to a dealer for a part. Like once a decade rare.
- userbinator 3y ago
  Mid-century domestic cars were probably peak repairability. You can still find most parts for them today, and even build an entire drivetrain without any parts from the original manufacturer. That said, many components of newer cars are still largely supplied by the same companies across brands.
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    Cars are special. Car owners are usually so dependent on them, that over the course of the ownership, they'll likely spend more on parts and repair than they originally bought the car for. Cars are in the Goldilocks zone of "any repair is, individually, much cheaper than replacing the car" plus "not having a working car quickly becomes more expensive than either". Can't think of any other product regular people own that's in similar situation.
    - paulmd 3y ago
      Housing (and plumbing, electrical, etc).
  - kazinator 3y ago
    > You can still find most parts for them today Why is that?
    - userbinator 3y ago
      Huge aftermarket (mainly performance), simplicity (no software), and "fanbase" (related to the performance aftermarket.)
MilStdJunkie 3y ago
With international supply chains, labor hours naturally flowed down to those places with cheapest labor, while maintenance hours (performed in higher standard of living countries) were chopped to basically nothing. Maintenance is where standards get enforced. While it might be possible to dictate standards to a factory in Shenzhen, the odds they're going to be built to spec is vanishingly small. So, as we've seen, far easier to just have the overseas factory build the assembly, then you can reject the nonfunctional assembly, or, better yet, have the consumer find the nonfunctional units directly. The upside of this is you can make all the components completely bespoke to the application, tightening tolerances and (with the potential of) increasing overall reliability. In industries where maintenance still has to happen, you see these general specs still in use. ARINC is one set that I deal with every day - they publish tons - along with many various MIL-STD things.
antisthenes 3y ago
> i just have no idea how you begin to create a global system of "generic parts" beyond screws and bolts in a world of globalized supply chains, with specialized production in every country. As the article points out, sometimes the spare parts are extremely simple things like bolts and screws, which should really be standardized across all industries. Things like motors/switches and other simple electric components can also be (and should be) mostly standardized. It's only once you get to circuits and complex electronic boards that you will run into issues, because they can be custom. Most consumer products aren't complicated, and if they are, they are only complicated because the company is trying to create huge markups and prevent people from repairing items.

by ikesau 3y ago

jfim 3y ago

There are definitely some products for which it would be doable, for example Midea makes a lot of the microwave oven models sold in the US.

lelanthran 3y ago

> i just have no idea how you begin to create a global system of "generic parts" beyond screws and bolts in a world of globalized supply chains, with specialized production in every country. Older cars were. Manufacturers never designed their own brake pads, they picked a caliper design that closely fit an existing wheel. Carburetors? Just fit one from a carburetor manufacturer (weber, etc). Steering racks, balljoints ... many fit multiple brands. Alternators, radiators, various water tanks ... all from a common parts manufacturer, then used in several brands. Thermostats used to be a common design too. Hell, they don't even do their own transmissions - just get a ZF-whatever. When Hyundai launched their gen-1 Elantra ~1990, it came with a Mitsubishi engine. Wheel bearings, CV joints - one design fit many different brands. The repairability of older cars was amazing in retrospect. Today it's different - you are unlikely to find brake pads from a Ford that fits a Toyota. The companies spent extra money on design, to make that internal part significantly different, then extra money on tooling to actually build it, just so that you cannot buy a replacement unless its from them.

HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
> just so that you cannot buy a replacement Conspiracy theories aside, the reason is more likely that by designing the part themselves, for a common set of applications at that manufacturer the cost is far lower than designing the rest of the car around the part. IOW: I have 1 cubic foot available for an assembly. I can custom design an assembly for the best performance I can get in that space, or I can redesign the engine compartment to get more than 1 ft^3 of space to fit the off the shelf part into.
- petsfed 3y ago
  My experience is that, because of concerns around single-point supply chain failures, most good design operations try to use off-the-shelf components as much as possible, and only custom manufacture that which cannot be purchased externally and still achieve the desired performance. Fitment is one of the factors, but fitment is itself dictated by a lot of things (aesthetics, ergonomics, safety standards, etc etc) that factor into the overall design. One could argue that Lamborghini could just drop a Ford Triton V10 into the Huracan and call it a day (it would save tens of thousands of dollars per car), but would that allow the rest of the car to still look like it does? Perform like it does? Enshrining right-to-repair into law is, in my opinion, a pretty good way to make sure that field-repairability is factored into the design. But I don't think its productive to force manufacturers to use a particular design technique to achieve that requirement. That hobbles their ability to actually deliver on their design.
  - lelanthran 3y ago
    > One could argue that Lamborghini could just drop a Ford Triton V10 into the Huracan and call it a day (it would save tens of thousands of dollars per car), but would that allow the rest of the car to still look like it does? Perform like it does? Well, they did drop an Audi engine in one of their cars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamborghini_Urus#Powertrain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamborghini_Urus#Powertrain
sokoloff 3y ago
But I can trivially easily buy replacement brake pads from any number of manufacturers. Even for a Lexus LFA (limited production supercar), I can buy pads from Bendix, FVP, Proline, and Wagner [and that's just what RockAuto carries]. For a more pedestrian 2020 Camry Hybrid, I have my choice of 57 different offerings from 13 different brands (covering both front and rear axles). > The companies spent extra money on design, to make that internal part significantly different, then extra money on tooling to actually build it, just so that you cannot buy a replacement unless its from them. Note that none of those were branded as Toyota/Lexus original parts, nor sold by them. If they did all that design work in order to capture spare parts sales, they forgot to do the second part of that strategy.
- lelanthran 3y ago
  > But I can trivially easily buy replacement brake pads from any number of manufacturers. Even for a Lexus LFA (limited production supercar), I can buy pads from Bendix, FVP, Proline, and Wagner [and that's just what RockAuto carries]. My point isn't that aftermarket manufacturers stepped in, my point is that, with old cars, the design was close to, if not identical to, an existing caliper, even if that was from a different manufacturer. Maybe it was because many manufacturers didn't design or manufacture their own calipers - it was done by bendix, et al. Now they spend extra money designing their own, often with no obvious benefit. > Note that none of those were branded as Toyota/Lexus original parts, nor sold by them. If they did all that design work in order to capture spare parts sales, they forgot to do the second part of that strategy. That's only the brake pads bit. I mentioned quite a few other components, too.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    Poke around RockAuto. For a 2020 Camry Hybrid (chosen randomly), of your list of parts, the following are all available from multiple non-Toyota suppliers: Steering tie rod ends (the part that tends to wear), balljoints, radiators*, coolant expansion tank*, washer fluid reservoir*, thermostats, Wheel bearings, CV joints (sold as full axles) https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/toyota,2020,camry,2.5l+l4+electric/gas,3445373 https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/toyota,2020,camry,2.5l+l... * Part not from RockAuto, but available from several other aftermarket suppliers I couldn't find an alternator for the hybrid, but I'm not sure if it has one, or if charging is part of the HSD. It's available for the non-hybrid, of course. I turn all the wrenches on our family cars. It's extremely rare that I have to go to a dealer for a part. Like once a decade rare.
userbinator 3y ago
Mid-century domestic cars were probably peak repairability. You can still find most parts for them today, and even build an entire drivetrain without any parts from the original manufacturer. That said, many components of newer cars are still largely supplied by the same companies across brands.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  Cars are special. Car owners are usually so dependent on them, that over the course of the ownership, they'll likely spend more on parts and repair than they originally bought the car for. Cars are in the Goldilocks zone of "any repair is, individually, much cheaper than replacing the car" plus "not having a working car quickly becomes more expensive than either". Can't think of any other product regular people own that's in similar situation.
  - paulmd 3y ago
    Housing (and plumbing, electrical, etc).
- kazinator 3y ago
  > You can still find most parts for them today Why is that?
  - userbinator 3y ago
    Huge aftermarket (mainly performance), simplicity (no software), and "fanbase" (related to the performance aftermarket.)

MilStdJunkie 3y ago

With international supply chains, labor hours naturally flowed down to those places with cheapest labor, while maintenance hours (performed in higher standard of living countries) were chopped to basically nothing. Maintenance is where standards get enforced. While it might be possible to dictate standards to a factory in Shenzhen, the odds they're going to be built to spec is vanishingly small. So, as we've seen, far easier to just have the overseas factory build the assembly, then you can reject the nonfunctional assembly, or, better yet, have the consumer find the nonfunctional units directly. The upside of this is you can make all the components completely bespoke to the application, tightening tolerances and (with the potential of) increasing overall reliability. In industries where maintenance still has to happen, you see these general specs still in use. ARINC is one set that I deal with every day - they publish tons - along with many various MIL-STD things.

antisthenes 3y ago

> i just have no idea how you begin to create a global system of "generic parts" beyond screws and bolts in a world of globalized supply chains, with specialized production in every country. As the article points out, sometimes the spare parts are extremely simple things like bolts and screws, which should really be standardized across all industries. Things like motors/switches and other simple electric components can also be (and should be) mostly standardized. It's only once you get to circuits and complex electronic boards that you will run into issues, because they can be custom. Most consumer products aren't complicated, and if they are, they are only complicated because the company is trying to create huge markups and prevent people from repairing items.