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Offering a different view in the idealistic capitalism camp. I don't think using starvation as a cattle prick even works to do what people think it does. People

Offering a different view in the idealistic capitalism camp. I don't think using starvation as a cattle prick even works to do what people think it does. People need psychological safety in order to want to work. They need to believe they will get something from the work they put in, not just the threat of starvation. However, _taxes_ are, at the end of the day, taking money from individuals, via the implicit (and sometimes explicit) threat of violence. Taxes (as in money collected with the threat of violence) are immoral. Capitalism in it's idealistic state seeks to give everyone agency in what they do, and let the market reward or punish those actions. However, of course, while communism requires the creation of "the state" (and therefore taxes) to enforce the state of things, capitalism encourages the creation of "the state", so in the end it doesn't really matter. I guess capitalism gives you a few minutes before "the state" is created. Social programs are good, in fact, great! Having safety nets lets people take risks they otherwise would not, and it's those risks that can advance society. However when you knock on my door and say pay for this social program or I will xyz, it's not a social program anymore it's social order at the threat of violence. The "or else" with social programs needs to be "or else the place that you live will be a terrible place to live"

xaellison 3y ago
forgive me for not engaging with your core ideas, but as far as I know the vernacular term is "cattle prod" and "cattle prick" sounds rather like something else
- from-nibly 3y ago
  No cattle prod is something that a person weilds. A cattle prick is attached to a load like a wagon behind the animals to poke the animal to get it to keep moving faster than the load. Edit: I guess formally it's called a goad https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goad https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goad The phrase I'm pulling this from is "don't kick against the pricks"
satellite2 3y ago
It's a view that's created by a very orthodox approach of the economy. If you look at more modern school of thought the government don't really need taxes to do anything. So for instance according to MMT taxes create an ongoing demand for currency and are a tool to take money out of an economy that is getting overheated. This goes against the conventional idea that taxes are primarily meant to provide the government with money to spend to build infrastructure, fund social welfare programs, etc. It's a bit the same idea with another modern approach FTPL but in that case with a more cautious and critical look, saying that low taxes allow high inflation and prevents the government from the need to pay its debt. In any case the real question all those systems try to solve is how to best allocate resources, maximize innovation, growth, employment and limit poverty and inequalities. Be careful that thinking that poor people are stealing your resources with taxes don't become a shortcut for you to accept the tough idea that you have more resources than you need and some people should have less than what they need to support you.
- from-nibly 3y ago
  Poor people aren't stealing my money with taxes. The state is. Be careful thinking that the only way to help those in need or to redistribute abundance is through the threat of violence.

xaellison 3y ago

forgive me for not engaging with your core ideas, but as far as I know the vernacular term is "cattle prod" and "cattle prick" sounds rather like something else

from-nibly 3y ago
No cattle prod is something that a person weilds. A cattle prick is attached to a load like a wagon behind the animals to poke the animal to get it to keep moving faster than the load. Edit: I guess formally it's called a goad https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goad https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goad The phrase I'm pulling this from is "don't kick against the pricks"

satellite2 3y ago

It's a view that's created by a very orthodox approach of the economy. If you look at more modern school of thought the government don't really need taxes to do anything. So for instance according to MMT taxes create an ongoing demand for currency and are a tool to take money out of an economy that is getting overheated. This goes against the conventional idea that taxes are primarily meant to provide the government with money to spend to build infrastructure, fund social welfare programs, etc. It's a bit the same idea with another modern approach FTPL but in that case with a more cautious and critical look, saying that low taxes allow high inflation and prevents the government from the need to pay its debt. In any case the real question all those systems try to solve is how to best allocate resources, maximize innovation, growth, employment and limit poverty and inequalities. Be careful that thinking that poor people are stealing your resources with taxes don't become a shortcut for you to accept the tough idea that you have more resources than you need and some people should have less than what they need to support you.

from-nibly 3y ago
Poor people aren't stealing my money with taxes. The state is. Be careful thinking that the only way to help those in need or to redistribute abundance is through the threat of violence.