4 ms·

Apple Music will now pay 10% higher royalties to artists for Spatial Audio music

54 points by nickthegreek 3y ago

anotherhue 3y ago
Can we instead have a 'mixed for good audio equipment' option? It doesn't matter how many PCM samples you have if the mixing engineer expects me to play it on a potato. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oq_Ol3kX1k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oq_Ol3kX1k
- reaperman 3y ago
  I have noticed this as well. EDM/Dance/Pop is a particular offender, we've lost a lot of ground since BT's "Emotional Technology". In the between-years, getting CD quality / FLAC formats helped a lot, but as you say, now the original masters are pretty highly compressed and don't get much benefit from quality audio systems at reasonable volume levels.
- kstrauser 3y ago
  I'd like a "mixed for people who can hear both loud and quiet sounds" version, please. My go-to example for terrible mastering is Dropkick Murphys' "The Meanest of Times" album. "The State of Massachusetts" starts with some mandolin (I think?) picking, then launches into drums and distorted guitars at exactly the same volume. I loaded the song in a sample editor and its waveform at 100% loudness the whole time. The album's songs are great, but I can't bear to listen to it.
  - anotherhue 3y ago
    It's at the point where people regularly record the vinyl LPs of an album and post those online because the mastering constraints of vinyl force these lunatic mixers (or their corporate bosses) to stay within the realms of sanity. Otherwise it's just early 2000s loudness wars all over again.
  - glitchc 3y ago
    Isn't that gimmick rock bands use to get you to dial the volume up to 11? AC/DC is the only band I know that doesn't do that.
    - sp332 3y ago
      It’s so you can hear all of the song when it’s played in public at a volume quiet enough to have a conversation over. Should be reserved for the radio edit IMO.
dontreact 3y ago
I spent some time listening to some Spatial Audio mixes about 1 year ago. Dolby Atmos is a cool concept but I was not able to hear a benefit. This reminds me of how when stereo first came out artists (including the Beatles) didn’t take it seriously. They would spend most of their time getting the mono mix right and the the stereo mix was thrown together and would often do strange things like having the lead vocals on one side. Does anyone know of artists that have really taken the time to ensure their music is benefitting from Dolby Atmos?
- askonomm 3y ago
  It definitely made hearing acoustic music / music with real instruments a hell of a lot better for me, making it closer to being at a performance than listening to headphones.
- jabroni_salad 3y ago
  I do not know if they are on streaming platforms, but Imogen Heap has some atmos mixes and they are worth experiencing. She also does spatial in her live shows. The recording is only stereo, but you can see her do it in act 3 of her tiny desk concert.
- squidsoup 3y ago
  It's a gimmick that doesn't really add much to music. Most professional audio engineers I've spoken to about it absolutely hate mixing for it.
  - kstrauser 3y ago
    It can be a pain in the ass to make and worthwhile.
  - theshrike79 3y ago
    It adds to the music when done well. Do the same engineers hate doing compressed crap where the waveform looks like this: ========== too? At least all of the Atmos mixes I've listened have some dynamic range in it.
- 3y ago
diebeforei485 3y ago
There are some spatial tracks that are extraordinarily good, and others that seem worse than the stereo version. Apple Music doesn't let you easily choose spatial vs non-spatial from the Now Playing screen. They have a single on/off toggle for everything. So it's much easier to simply have Spatial Audio turned off for everything.
crazygringo 3y ago
It's very interesting to me that Apple's willing to push spatial audio mastering this hard. Because on the one hand, listening to spatial audio on headphones is fantastic -- I will absolutely never go back to regular stereo-through-headphones playback that sounds like comes from inside your head. Spatial audio feels like it comes from outside your head, and totally eliminates the "headphones fatigue" the inside-your-head sensation creates. And you can literally hear more detail in the music because there's more separation in the instruments. But on the other hand, it's not super clear that spatial audio recordings are all that necessary for music, because the "Spatialize Stereo" setting works pretty well on its own. You don't need Dolby mastering -- my iPhone spatializes any stereo track already, doing whatever magic processing it does based on the relative volumes and delays of the same frequencies on the L/R channels. I've tried listening to the same tracks using Apple Music's spatial masters, and in Spotify with the spatialized stereo version. The Apple Music versions feel maybe twice as "wide" with more separation between some instruments (and sounds are usually placed a bit differently). But on the other hand, it's not clear to me that that's actually a good thing. Because when I'm watching movies with my AirPods, I do want sounds from the left to feel like they're coming all the way from the left. But when I'm listening to music on the train or on a bus, too much spatial separation feels like it might be more distracting than desired. Spatialized stereo feels good enough to me -- I don't really see a huge benefit in remastering music in surround say, the way there has been a huge benefit in remastering movie audio from previous decades in surround. But I guess we'll see. Especially with new speakers like the Sonos Era 300 [1] that are actually built to project spatial audio into a room -- so it's not just something for headphones anymore. [1] https://www.sonos.com/en-us/shop/era-300 https://www.sonos.com/en-us/shop/era-300
- devindotcom 3y ago
  I don't mean to question your experience, but the inside/outside thing can very easily be a property of the headphones, not the mix. Certainly mixing it to emphasize that is a choice, but a good stereo mix is really not so fundamentally limited in its soundstage. It may be the producer's deliberate choice to have the voice here, the guitar there, etc, and automatic "spatializers" may moot that choice. But of course so may playing it via a single-channel Bluetooth speaker. It's up to the listener to provide the experience they like best, but I question the need to have Apple pushing this particular type of mix so hard.
kstrauser 3y ago
The first time I ever really noticed it, I was on a bus home from work and listening to music on my AirPod Pros with noice cancelation turned on. The music sounded uncannily like it was coming from my phone. When I turned my head, it was still coming from the same place. I had to convince myself that I didn't have my phone speakers up loud to be That Guy on the bus, but it was still loud and clear when I covered my ears with my hands. The illusion was perfect. It was weird and awesome, and I love it.
- JasonSage 3y ago
  This is Spatial Audio, but it’s not the kind talked about here. These Spatial Audio mixes have that effect but distinct locations for every instrument/voice/audio line, so it doesn’t sound like it’s coming from your device, but that it is all around you.
  - kstrauser 3y ago
    Sure. Maybe more accurately, it sounded like it was coming from a stage roughly where my phone was.
  - wrs 3y ago
    More precisely, Spatial Audio renders sound into your ears that simulates placement of sound sources in a real 3-D space. It can take a stereo mix and render it as if it were coming from speakers in your device. It can also take a surround or Dolby Atmos mix and render it as if you were in the center of the speaker array (surround) or the center of a room with multiple signal sources (Atmos). It can do this with head tracking that makes the simulation truly uncanny. So the branding is a little confusing — Spatial Audio is a technology that sits between your ears and the encoded mix, as well as a marketing label to differentiate Atmos mixes from stereo mixes in the store.
- saurik 3y ago
  Why do you want the music to sound like it is coming from your phone while you are on a bus? FWIW, my phone, when I am on a bus, is in some random location as I move it between hands, put it in my pocket or attempt to prop it on a ledge, and I'm probably often staring blankly out the window... am I somehow crazy? Why does the iPhone keep wanting me to think the audio is coming from my phone?
amanzi 3y ago
Who is asking for spatial audio mixes? Is there any demand for this or is Apple pushing it for corporate reasons? To my ears, the spatial mixes are an interesting gimmick, but the audio quality sounds worse than the "HD" (or whatever they are called) mixes. Personally, I'm just happy with CD quality streams - I'm not able to hear differences with anything higher quality than that, but I can often (but not always) tell the difference with lower quality streams.
- spamizbad 3y ago
  I imagine it's seen as a value-add by Apple and Dolby. Studios are forking off massive sums to build-out Atmos rigs. A savvy artists may ask for it because it helps you on Apple Music. As for the consumer experience, I feel like Benn Jordan's video from earlier last year does a good job of explaining the situation and its current limitations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Dw3aKbw5Wo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Dw3aKbw5Wo
  - amanzi 3y ago
    Yes - I saw that video! Reaffirms my belief that it's really just Apple pushing this.
- saurik 3y ago
  I also find it really annoying as it keeps wanting to push me into a mode where it is doing "head tracking" with "spatial audio" based on the location of my phone, as if the location of my phone has any meaning at all to me when I am listening to music (or even "watching" video as I am likely trying to do some activity at the same time or why the hell am I using my phone?!).
  - jazzyjackson 3y ago
    Agreed, i've only ever turned it off, why would I want L and R to swap when I turn around? maybe if it was realtime i wouldn't notice it but with airpods at least there's a noticeable delay in the mix catching up to your movement
sunshine_reggae 3y ago
It might even offset a year's worth of inflation.
- anotherhue 3y ago
  'Spatial Audio' needs to be included in the basket used to calculate CPI.
LeoPanthera 3y ago
I did try spatial audio. I have compatible Airpods (Max) and also it will play through my home theater system from my Apple TV. But after about a month I turned it off. All the stereo mixes sound better. It some cases, a lot better. I don't want music swirling around my head every time I look left or right. Sorry Apple. Sorry artists. Stereo has endured this long for a reason. We have two ears.
- theshrike79 3y ago
  ...it's not "swirling around your head", it's trying to emulate a case where the sound is coming from static speakers that don't move even though your head does.
  - LeoPanthera 3y ago
    Yes. I understand what it's doing. But it sounds like "swirling" and it's usually fairly unpleasant.
iruoy 3y ago
I've tried it before on AirPods Max and wasnt' that impressed. But just yesterday I've tried it on a very nice home cinema. Some songs seem basically auto-generated, but some songs have a very cool surround mix. It's a bit of a gamble right now what you'll get. Either is a fun experience though. So I think the technology is quite cool and I will use it again. It won't be very often though, because all my regular listening areas/devices are stereo.
- cpuguy83 3y ago
  I seem to recall AirPods Max don't support Spatial Audio mixes... maybe that's changed?
  - zaptrem 3y ago
    Using them right now, definitely supported. They don't support lossless, though.
    - cpuguy83 3y ago
      Ah that's what it was.
etchalon 3y ago
"Apple continues to search for the Vision Pro's killer feature."
tambourine_man 3y ago
I just wanted to play my MP3s without dealing the crapton of bugs and UI disasters that is Apple Music. I tried using Home Sharing yesterday. The iPhone app simply showed a spinner that eventually disappeared. No error messages, nothing. I’m logged in on the same account, same wifi, etc. I tried logging out and in, force quitting, turning off and on home sharing, nothing worked. Annoyed me so much I even lost the joy of listening to the song. I don’t give a shit about spatial audio. I want basic functionality we had 20 years ago.
112233 3y ago
Oh no please no. Also, probably no use switching elsewhere because everything apple does is contagious. On apple pods atmos sounds like an allpass filtered mush, with weird coloration and all transients and bass done in. It is especially apparent when switching between stereo and atmos on the same track - why would I want it? Am I missing something? At least apple didn't catch the MQA disease (for now. thanks?)

54 points by nickthegreek 3y ago

Can we instead have a 'mixed for good audio equipment' option? It doesn't matter how many PCM samples you have if the mixing engineer expects me to play it on a potato. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oq_Ol3kX1k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oq_Ol3kX1k

reaperman 3y ago
I have noticed this as well. EDM/Dance/Pop is a particular offender, we've lost a lot of ground since BT's "Emotional Technology". In the between-years, getting CD quality / FLAC formats helped a lot, but as you say, now the original masters are pretty highly compressed and don't get much benefit from quality audio systems at reasonable volume levels.
kstrauser 3y ago
I'd like a "mixed for people who can hear both loud and quiet sounds" version, please. My go-to example for terrible mastering is Dropkick Murphys' "The Meanest of Times" album. "The State of Massachusetts" starts with some mandolin (I think?) picking, then launches into drums and distorted guitars at exactly the same volume. I loaded the song in a sample editor and its waveform at 100% loudness the whole time. The album's songs are great, but I can't bear to listen to it.
- anotherhue 3y ago
  It's at the point where people regularly record the vinyl LPs of an album and post those online because the mastering constraints of vinyl force these lunatic mixers (or their corporate bosses) to stay within the realms of sanity. Otherwise it's just early 2000s loudness wars all over again.
- glitchc 3y ago
  Isn't that gimmick rock bands use to get you to dial the volume up to 11? AC/DC is the only band I know that doesn't do that.
  - sp332 3y ago
    It’s so you can hear all of the song when it’s played in public at a volume quiet enough to have a conversation over. Should be reserved for the radio edit IMO.

dontreact 3y ago

I spent some time listening to some Spatial Audio mixes about 1 year ago. Dolby Atmos is a cool concept but I was not able to hear a benefit. This reminds me of how when stereo first came out artists (including the Beatles) didn’t take it seriously. They would spend most of their time getting the mono mix right and the the stereo mix was thrown together and would often do strange things like having the lead vocals on one side. Does anyone know of artists that have really taken the time to ensure their music is benefitting from Dolby Atmos?

askonomm 3y ago
It definitely made hearing acoustic music / music with real instruments a hell of a lot better for me, making it closer to being at a performance than listening to headphones.
jabroni_salad 3y ago
I do not know if they are on streaming platforms, but Imogen Heap has some atmos mixes and they are worth experiencing. She also does spatial in her live shows. The recording is only stereo, but you can see her do it in act 3 of her tiny desk concert.
squidsoup 3y ago
It's a gimmick that doesn't really add much to music. Most professional audio engineers I've spoken to about it absolutely hate mixing for it.
- kstrauser 3y ago
  It can be a pain in the ass to make and worthwhile.
- theshrike79 3y ago
  It adds to the music when done well. Do the same engineers hate doing compressed crap where the waveform looks like this: ========== too? At least all of the Atmos mixes I've listened have some dynamic range in it.
3y ago

diebeforei485 3y ago

There are some spatial tracks that are extraordinarily good, and others that seem worse than the stereo version. Apple Music doesn't let you easily choose spatial vs non-spatial from the Now Playing screen. They have a single on/off toggle for everything. So it's much easier to simply have Spatial Audio turned off for everything.

crazygringo 3y ago

It's very interesting to me that Apple's willing to push spatial audio mastering this hard. Because on the one hand, listening to spatial audio on headphones is fantastic -- I will absolutely never go back to regular stereo-through-headphones playback that sounds like comes from inside your head. Spatial audio feels like it comes from outside your head, and totally eliminates the "headphones fatigue" the inside-your-head sensation creates. And you can literally hear more detail in the music because there's more separation in the instruments. But on the other hand, it's not super clear that spatial audio recordings are all that necessary for music, because the "Spatialize Stereo" setting works pretty well on its own. You don't need Dolby mastering -- my iPhone spatializes any stereo track already, doing whatever magic processing it does based on the relative volumes and delays of the same frequencies on the L/R channels. I've tried listening to the same tracks using Apple Music's spatial masters, and in Spotify with the spatialized stereo version. The Apple Music versions feel maybe twice as "wide" with more separation between some instruments (and sounds are usually placed a bit differently). But on the other hand, it's not clear to me that that's actually a good thing. Because when I'm watching movies with my AirPods, I do want sounds from the left to feel like they're coming all the way from the left. But when I'm listening to music on the train or on a bus, too much spatial separation feels like it might be more distracting than desired. Spatialized stereo feels good enough to me -- I don't really see a huge benefit in remastering music in surround say, the way there has been a huge benefit in remastering movie audio from previous decades in surround. But I guess we'll see. Especially with new speakers like the Sonos Era 300 [1] that are actually built to project spatial audio into a room -- so it's not just something for headphones anymore. [1] https://www.sonos.com/en-us/shop/era-300 https://www.sonos.com/en-us/shop/era-300

devindotcom 3y ago
I don't mean to question your experience, but the inside/outside thing can very easily be a property of the headphones, not the mix. Certainly mixing it to emphasize that is a choice, but a good stereo mix is really not so fundamentally limited in its soundstage. It may be the producer's deliberate choice to have the voice here, the guitar there, etc, and automatic "spatializers" may moot that choice. But of course so may playing it via a single-channel Bluetooth speaker. It's up to the listener to provide the experience they like best, but I question the need to have Apple pushing this particular type of mix so hard.

kstrauser 3y ago

The first time I ever really noticed it, I was on a bus home from work and listening to music on my AirPod Pros with noice cancelation turned on. The music sounded uncannily like it was coming from my phone. When I turned my head, it was still coming from the same place. I had to convince myself that I didn't have my phone speakers up loud to be That Guy on the bus, but it was still loud and clear when I covered my ears with my hands. The illusion was perfect. It was weird and awesome, and I love it.

JasonSage 3y ago
This is Spatial Audio, but it’s not the kind talked about here. These Spatial Audio mixes have that effect but distinct locations for every instrument/voice/audio line, so it doesn’t sound like it’s coming from your device, but that it is all around you.
- kstrauser 3y ago
  Sure. Maybe more accurately, it sounded like it was coming from a stage roughly where my phone was.
- wrs 3y ago
  More precisely, Spatial Audio renders sound into your ears that simulates placement of sound sources in a real 3-D space. It can take a stereo mix and render it as if it were coming from speakers in your device. It can also take a surround or Dolby Atmos mix and render it as if you were in the center of the speaker array (surround) or the center of a room with multiple signal sources (Atmos). It can do this with head tracking that makes the simulation truly uncanny. So the branding is a little confusing — Spatial Audio is a technology that sits between your ears and the encoded mix, as well as a marketing label to differentiate Atmos mixes from stereo mixes in the store.
saurik 3y ago
Why do you want the music to sound like it is coming from your phone while you are on a bus? FWIW, my phone, when I am on a bus, is in some random location as I move it between hands, put it in my pocket or attempt to prop it on a ledge, and I'm probably often staring blankly out the window... am I somehow crazy? Why does the iPhone keep wanting me to think the audio is coming from my phone?

amanzi 3y ago

Who is asking for spatial audio mixes? Is there any demand for this or is Apple pushing it for corporate reasons? To my ears, the spatial mixes are an interesting gimmick, but the audio quality sounds worse than the "HD" (or whatever they are called) mixes. Personally, I'm just happy with CD quality streams - I'm not able to hear differences with anything higher quality than that, but I can often (but not always) tell the difference with lower quality streams.

spamizbad 3y ago
I imagine it's seen as a value-add by Apple and Dolby. Studios are forking off massive sums to build-out Atmos rigs. A savvy artists may ask for it because it helps you on Apple Music. As for the consumer experience, I feel like Benn Jordan's video from earlier last year does a good job of explaining the situation and its current limitations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Dw3aKbw5Wo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Dw3aKbw5Wo
- amanzi 3y ago
  Yes - I saw that video! Reaffirms my belief that it's really just Apple pushing this.
saurik 3y ago
I also find it really annoying as it keeps wanting to push me into a mode where it is doing "head tracking" with "spatial audio" based on the location of my phone, as if the location of my phone has any meaning at all to me when I am listening to music (or even "watching" video as I am likely trying to do some activity at the same time or why the hell am I using my phone?!).
- jazzyjackson 3y ago
  Agreed, i've only ever turned it off, why would I want L and R to swap when I turn around? maybe if it was realtime i wouldn't notice it but with airpods at least there's a noticeable delay in the mix catching up to your movement

sunshine_reggae 3y ago

It might even offset a year's worth of inflation.

anotherhue 3y ago
'Spatial Audio' needs to be included in the basket used to calculate CPI.

LeoPanthera 3y ago

I did try spatial audio. I have compatible Airpods (Max) and also it will play through my home theater system from my Apple TV. But after about a month I turned it off. All the stereo mixes sound better. It some cases, a lot better. I don't want music swirling around my head every time I look left or right. Sorry Apple. Sorry artists. Stereo has endured this long for a reason. We have two ears.

theshrike79 3y ago
...it's not "swirling around your head", it's trying to emulate a case where the sound is coming from static speakers that don't move even though your head does.
- LeoPanthera 3y ago
  Yes. I understand what it's doing. But it sounds like "swirling" and it's usually fairly unpleasant.

iruoy 3y ago

I've tried it before on AirPods Max and wasnt' that impressed. But just yesterday I've tried it on a very nice home cinema. Some songs seem basically auto-generated, but some songs have a very cool surround mix. It's a bit of a gamble right now what you'll get. Either is a fun experience though. So I think the technology is quite cool and I will use it again. It won't be very often though, because all my regular listening areas/devices are stereo.

cpuguy83 3y ago
I seem to recall AirPods Max don't support Spatial Audio mixes... maybe that's changed?
- zaptrem 3y ago
  Using them right now, definitely supported. They don't support lossless, though.
  - cpuguy83 3y ago
    Ah that's what it was.

etchalon 3y ago

"Apple continues to search for the Vision Pro's killer feature."

tambourine_man 3y ago

I just wanted to play my MP3s without dealing the crapton of bugs and UI disasters that is Apple Music. I tried using Home Sharing yesterday. The iPhone app simply showed a spinner that eventually disappeared. No error messages, nothing. I’m logged in on the same account, same wifi, etc. I tried logging out and in, force quitting, turning off and on home sharing, nothing worked. Annoyed me so much I even lost the joy of listening to the song. I don’t give a shit about spatial audio. I want basic functionality we had 20 years ago.

112233 3y ago

Oh no please no. Also, probably no use switching elsewhere because everything apple does is contagious. On apple pods atmos sounds like an allpass filtered mush, with weird coloration and all transients and bass done in. It is especially apparent when switching between stereo and atmos on the same track - why would I want it? Am I missing something? At least apple didn't catch the MQA disease (for now. thanks?)