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It's going to be very difficult to avoid the 737 MAX going forward. Airlines love these planes because they save fuel and Boeing has a waiting list for them out

It's going to be very difficult to avoid the 737 MAX going forward. Airlines love these planes because they save fuel and Boeing has a waiting list for them out to 2030. AFAIK you cannot order a new 737 from Boeing that is not a MAX. The only viable solution is an independent safety board (paid for out of Boeing profits) that supervises every aspect of design and production at Boeing and its contractors until Boeing learns how to build safe airplanes again.

echelon 3y ago
"If it's a Boeing, I'm not going." I already look for these planes and will schedule my itinerary around avoiding them.
- redcobra762 3y ago
  You can try, but the point is that will only get harder, and it’s not like the economic pain will be felt in any specific sense. You’ll just fly less.
  - lawlessone 3y ago
    Is this a US thing? In the EU and i've found as long as avoid Ryanair everyone else is using Airbus.
    - redcobra762 3y ago
      Southwest and United have the most, so yeah. https://simpleflying.com/boeing-737-max-airlines/ https://simpleflying.com/boeing-737-max-airlines/ Americans fly the most out of any country though, so it’s unsurprising America also buys the most planes. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_airline_passengers https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_airline...
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - hedora 3y ago
        United is absolutely horrible, so I’ve been actively avoiding them for over a decade. Southwest was my go to, but I’ll happily fly a crappier non-boeing airline if it’s an option.
        colingoodman 3y ago
        I don't care for any airline, but while I see your disgust for United expressed often I haven't had any issues with them. Granted I only fly them a few times a year. Either they've improved a lot or I have been lucky!
  - the_doctah 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - andsoitis 3y ago
      > we just have to collectively accept it getting shittier and more dangerous? Decline of civilization in full effect. Aviation safety has been improving, not getting worse. https://www.icao.int/safety/Documents/ICAO_SR_2023_20230823.pdf https://www.icao.int/safety/Documents/ICAO_SR_2023_20230823....
    - toss1 3y ago
      Was with you until the ignorant diversity comment Diversity actually tends to IMPROVE results — including corporate financial results — by bringing aboard different points of view. And if you somehow still think that some races are more intrinsically intelligent than others, you're simply ignorant of the fact that the supposed racial results disparity in tests like the SAT measures more accurately disparity in opportunity [2]. There are many more references for both, and I'll stop at ignorance, but you really should get more educated before posting ignorance like that. [0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/karstenstrauss/2018/01/25/more-evidence-that-company-diversity-leads-to-better-profits/?sh=6246c86d1bc7 https://www.forbes.com/sites/karstenstrauss/2018/01/25/more-... [1] https://hbr.org/2019/03/when-and-why-diversity-improves-your-boards-performance https://hbr.org/2019/03/when-and-why-diversity-improves-your... [2] https://www.brookings.edu/articles/race-gaps-in-sat-scores-highlight-inequality-and-hinder-upward-mobility/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/race-gaps-in-sat-scores-h...
      - the_doctah 3y ago
        > you're simply ignorant of the fact that the supposed racial results disparity in tests like the SAT measures more accurately disparity in opportunity Literally all this chart shows is disparity in performance, thereby proving my point. Unless you're trying to say standardized tests are racist? >And if you somehow still think that some races are more intrinsically intelligent than others Black people just have more access to sports, which is why they are more athletic. Disparity in opportunity, right? Asians just don't have access to enough basketball courts. But yeah, I'm the ignorant one.
jmward01 3y ago
Comparing the 737 max (all variants) to nearly any other passenger transport shows that it is safe and we are seeing why in real time. An issue happened which correctly caused immediate grounding and inspections followed by an in-depth review and likely corrective action both to the issue and the practices that created it. Implying it isn't safe is continuing to feed a false narrative that encourages unreasonable fear of flying and is holding aviation back.
- OvbiousError 3y ago
  Except if part of the wall goes flying off you mean?
  - hedora 3y ago
    Or if the still-not-redundant air speed sensor fails. There’s also the recent report that parts of the tail wing were not properly torqued, and they’re internally falling apart.
    - dghlsakjg 3y ago
      Do you mean the AoA sensor? There have always been at least three airspeed pitots on every 737 model. Also, as of 2022, there are 2 physical sensors and a computed value from alternate sources for AoA on all flying MAX planes
    - NikkiA 3y ago
      The 737 has had an empennage assembly problem since the 737-classics, every few years boeing promises they've tightened QA and it's solved, then it happens again.
  - swasheck 3y ago
    it does seem like there's been an uptick in "incidents" involving boeing planes, in particular, and maybe that's because of the fallout of the merger between boeing and md (https://qz.com/1776080/how-the-mcdonnell-douglas-boeing-merger-led-to-the-737-max-crisis/ https://qz.com/1776080/how-the-mcdonnell-douglas-boeing-merg...), and even then i'm not sure if that's _statistically_ accurate. this does not, however, invalidate the CP premise that it's generally safe to fly, even on the Max series and that is largely because this part of the process is working (grounding, checking, remediating) even if the development and manufacturing processes have failed. however, i'll also agree with you that being subject to the effects of iterative improvement is uncomfortable in the air transport context.
justapassenger 3y ago
[dead]
jwells89 3y ago
> The only viable solution is an independent safety board (paid for out of Boeing profits) that supervises every aspect of design and production at Boeing and its contractors until Boeing learns how to build safe airplanes again. At this point I’d go further than that. Their ability to manufacture and sell aircraft should be at stake. This needs to be an existential threat for Boeing to take it seriously.
JCharante 3y ago
> It's going to be very difficult to avoid the 737 MAX going forward. Maybe. Delta doesn't currently have any 737 max and they have ordered 100 max 10s, but they aren't approved by the FAA yet and they might change their order. There are still airlines that prefer airbus.

echelon 3y ago

"If it's a Boeing, I'm not going." I already look for these planes and will schedule my itinerary around avoiding them.

redcobra762 3y ago
You can try, but the point is that will only get harder, and it’s not like the economic pain will be felt in any specific sense. You’ll just fly less.
- lawlessone 3y ago
  Is this a US thing? In the EU and i've found as long as avoid Ryanair everyone else is using Airbus.
  - redcobra762 3y ago
    Southwest and United have the most, so yeah. https://simpleflying.com/boeing-737-max-airlines/ https://simpleflying.com/boeing-737-max-airlines/ Americans fly the most out of any country though, so it’s unsurprising America also buys the most planes. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_airline_passengers https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_airline...
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - hedora 3y ago
      United is absolutely horrible, so I’ve been actively avoiding them for over a decade. Southwest was my go to, but I’ll happily fly a crappier non-boeing airline if it’s an option.
      - colingoodman 3y ago
        I don't care for any airline, but while I see your disgust for United expressed often I haven't had any issues with them. Granted I only fly them a few times a year. Either they've improved a lot or I have been lucky!
- the_doctah 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - andsoitis 3y ago
    > we just have to collectively accept it getting shittier and more dangerous? Decline of civilization in full effect. Aviation safety has been improving, not getting worse. https://www.icao.int/safety/Documents/ICAO_SR_2023_20230823.pdf https://www.icao.int/safety/Documents/ICAO_SR_2023_20230823....
  - toss1 3y ago
    Was with you until the ignorant diversity comment Diversity actually tends to IMPROVE results — including corporate financial results — by bringing aboard different points of view. And if you somehow still think that some races are more intrinsically intelligent than others, you're simply ignorant of the fact that the supposed racial results disparity in tests like the SAT measures more accurately disparity in opportunity [2]. There are many more references for both, and I'll stop at ignorance, but you really should get more educated before posting ignorance like that. [0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/karstenstrauss/2018/01/25/more-evidence-that-company-diversity-leads-to-better-profits/?sh=6246c86d1bc7 https://www.forbes.com/sites/karstenstrauss/2018/01/25/more-... [1] https://hbr.org/2019/03/when-and-why-diversity-improves-your-boards-performance https://hbr.org/2019/03/when-and-why-diversity-improves-your... [2] https://www.brookings.edu/articles/race-gaps-in-sat-scores-highlight-inequality-and-hinder-upward-mobility/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/race-gaps-in-sat-scores-h...
    - the_doctah 3y ago
      > you're simply ignorant of the fact that the supposed racial results disparity in tests like the SAT measures more accurately disparity in opportunity Literally all this chart shows is disparity in performance, thereby proving my point. Unless you're trying to say standardized tests are racist? >And if you somehow still think that some races are more intrinsically intelligent than others Black people just have more access to sports, which is why they are more athletic. Disparity in opportunity, right? Asians just don't have access to enough basketball courts. But yeah, I'm the ignorant one.

jmward01 3y ago

Comparing the 737 max (all variants) to nearly any other passenger transport shows that it is safe and we are seeing why in real time. An issue happened which correctly caused immediate grounding and inspections followed by an in-depth review and likely corrective action both to the issue and the practices that created it. Implying it isn't safe is continuing to feed a false narrative that encourages unreasonable fear of flying and is holding aviation back.

OvbiousError 3y ago
Except if part of the wall goes flying off you mean?
- hedora 3y ago
  Or if the still-not-redundant air speed sensor fails. There’s also the recent report that parts of the tail wing were not properly torqued, and they’re internally falling apart.
  - dghlsakjg 3y ago
    Do you mean the AoA sensor? There have always been at least three airspeed pitots on every 737 model. Also, as of 2022, there are 2 physical sensors and a computed value from alternate sources for AoA on all flying MAX planes
  - NikkiA 3y ago
    The 737 has had an empennage assembly problem since the 737-classics, every few years boeing promises they've tightened QA and it's solved, then it happens again.
- swasheck 3y ago
  it does seem like there's been an uptick in "incidents" involving boeing planes, in particular, and maybe that's because of the fallout of the merger between boeing and md (https://qz.com/1776080/how-the-mcdonnell-douglas-boeing-merger-led-to-the-737-max-crisis/ https://qz.com/1776080/how-the-mcdonnell-douglas-boeing-merg...), and even then i'm not sure if that's _statistically_ accurate. this does not, however, invalidate the CP premise that it's generally safe to fly, even on the Max series and that is largely because this part of the process is working (grounding, checking, remediating) even if the development and manufacturing processes have failed. however, i'll also agree with you that being subject to the effects of iterative improvement is uncomfortable in the air transport context.

justapassenger 3y ago

[dead]

jwells89 3y ago

> The only viable solution is an independent safety board (paid for out of Boeing profits) that supervises every aspect of design and production at Boeing and its contractors until Boeing learns how to build safe airplanes again. At this point I’d go further than that. Their ability to manufacture and sell aircraft should be at stake. This needs to be an existential threat for Boeing to take it seriously.

JCharante 3y ago

> It's going to be very difficult to avoid the 737 MAX going forward. Maybe. Delta doesn't currently have any 737 max and they have ordered 100 max 10s, but they aren't approved by the FAA yet and they might change their order. There are still airlines that prefer airbus.