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Ironically, but not surprisingly, in describing his alternative to hierarchy, the video essentially re-invents hierarchy. Anarchy is so fragile that even in a

Ironically, but not surprisingly, in describing his alternative to hierarchy, the video essentially re-invents hierarchy. Anarchy is so fragile that even in a thought experiment by an anarchist, it can't even last 20 minutes.

TotalCrackpot 3y ago
Why? Maybe something heavy landed on your heard and you are dizzy? I think he explained it very elementally.
- YurgenJurgensen 3y ago
  Resorting to petty name-calling this early doesn't make me /more/ inclined to take your ideology seriously, you know.
  - TotalCrackpot 3y ago
    Maybe you are right here, but you didn't really seem interest in even trying to understand it. Unfortunate, maybe I am wrong and some day in the future some more convincing argumentation will change your opinion towards considering at least some anarchistic arguments. And maybe you are right that I was rude for no good reason.
    - Ancapistani 3y ago
      > maybe I am wrong and some day in the future some more convincing argumentation will change your opinion Possibly. I've changed some minds in the past. I don't have it handy right now, but one of my most cherished results of discussing this stuff online is a Reddit message I got from someone years ago. I was arguing against compulsory taxation. The person I was arguing with didn't agree with me in the least, but that's OK; I just continued to share my views and was clear that sharing was my only goal. I didn't expect them to "convert" and see things my way. Many months later they sent me a DM to let me know that they had in fact come to see things the way I'd described, and credited that conversation as the beginning of that transformation. To be blunt: hostility and name-calling is no way to change someone's mind. It's counterproductive, and I wish people who call themselves anarchists would stop doing it. It makes my approach more difficult.
Ancapistani 3y ago
Disclaimer: I've not yet watched the video. I will. > Ironically, but not surprisingly, in describing his alternative to hierarchy, the video essentially re-invents hierarchy. Anarchism isn't a single, unified ideology. Not all forms of anarchism is anti-hierarchy. Anarcho-capitalism boils down to the abolition of violent coercion. Anarcho-Socialism and -Syndicalism boils down to the decentralization of authoritarian hierarchy to the level of a well-defined community that is small enough for an individual to have an effective voice yet large enough that that community has a voice in the affairs of the larger society within which it exists. Bear in mind that the above are my syntheses, not some sort of "official" defition. My point is that it's no more fair to lump all forms of anarchism - and all anarchists - into a single group than it would be to lump republicans together with monarchists. Hierarchy is not necessarily antithetical to anarchism. > Anarchy is so fragile that even in a thought experiment by an anarchist, it can't even last 20 minutes. I think a lot of people - including a lot of self-described anarchists - confuse the political philosophy with practical application thereof. In my own view, anarchism is a set of beliefs about how things should be. It's a way of viewing the world and a set of negative guidelines governing how people should interact with one another (e.g. "A person should not use of threaten force to get what they want") The political and social institutions that would arise from a society founded on the precepts of anarchism needn't be stable, or even predictable.
- YurgenJurgensen 3y ago
  There's no more value in discussing how things should be without considering how one might get there than there is in discussing the implications of warp drive and replicators on society. The main difference between science fiction authors and anarchists, however, is that occasionally a science fiction novel is proven to be prophetic.
  - Ancapistani 3y ago
    ... and yet, here we are, doing exactly that :) If you change your mind, I'm happy to discuss. Otherwise, I hope your day is productive and fulfilling.
hnbad 3y ago
Sure. If you ignore the definition of hierarchy the video uses and go out of your way to misinterpret what he says. If you're not clear on this (Engels certainly wasn't, as his infamous essay "On Authority" demonstrates) here's a video from Anark specifically addressing that concept and how it is to be understood in most of Anarchist theory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFZZiRmZxoU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFZZiRmZxoU If you think the video "re-invents hierarchy" maybe you can spell out where you think it does that. It won't be a snappy one-liner that makes you sound witty but it might be conducive to an actual conversation.

TotalCrackpot 3y ago

Why? Maybe something heavy landed on your heard and you are dizzy? I think he explained it very elementally.

YurgenJurgensen 3y ago
Resorting to petty name-calling this early doesn't make me /more/ inclined to take your ideology seriously, you know.
- TotalCrackpot 3y ago
  Maybe you are right here, but you didn't really seem interest in even trying to understand it. Unfortunate, maybe I am wrong and some day in the future some more convincing argumentation will change your opinion towards considering at least some anarchistic arguments. And maybe you are right that I was rude for no good reason.
  - Ancapistani 3y ago
    > maybe I am wrong and some day in the future some more convincing argumentation will change your opinion Possibly. I've changed some minds in the past. I don't have it handy right now, but one of my most cherished results of discussing this stuff online is a Reddit message I got from someone years ago. I was arguing against compulsory taxation. The person I was arguing with didn't agree with me in the least, but that's OK; I just continued to share my views and was clear that sharing was my only goal. I didn't expect them to "convert" and see things my way. Many months later they sent me a DM to let me know that they had in fact come to see things the way I'd described, and credited that conversation as the beginning of that transformation. To be blunt: hostility and name-calling is no way to change someone's mind. It's counterproductive, and I wish people who call themselves anarchists would stop doing it. It makes my approach more difficult.

Ancapistani 3y ago

Disclaimer: I've not yet watched the video. I will. > Ironically, but not surprisingly, in describing his alternative to hierarchy, the video essentially re-invents hierarchy. Anarchism isn't a single, unified ideology. Not all forms of anarchism is anti-hierarchy. Anarcho-capitalism boils down to the abolition of violent coercion. Anarcho-Socialism and -Syndicalism boils down to the decentralization of authoritarian hierarchy to the level of a well-defined community that is small enough for an individual to have an effective voice yet large enough that that community has a voice in the affairs of the larger society within which it exists. Bear in mind that the above are my syntheses, not some sort of "official" defition. My point is that it's no more fair to lump all forms of anarchism - and all anarchists - into a single group than it would be to lump republicans together with monarchists. Hierarchy is not necessarily antithetical to anarchism. > Anarchy is so fragile that even in a thought experiment by an anarchist, it can't even last 20 minutes. I think a lot of people - including a lot of self-described anarchists - confuse the political philosophy with practical application thereof. In my own view, anarchism is a set of beliefs about how things should be. It's a way of viewing the world and a set of negative guidelines governing how people should interact with one another (e.g. "A person should not use of threaten force to get what they want") The political and social institutions that would arise from a society founded on the precepts of anarchism needn't be stable, or even predictable.

YurgenJurgensen 3y ago
There's no more value in discussing how things should be without considering how one might get there than there is in discussing the implications of warp drive and replicators on society. The main difference between science fiction authors and anarchists, however, is that occasionally a science fiction novel is proven to be prophetic.
- Ancapistani 3y ago
  ... and yet, here we are, doing exactly that :) If you change your mind, I'm happy to discuss. Otherwise, I hope your day is productive and fulfilling.

hnbad 3y ago

Sure. If you ignore the definition of hierarchy the video uses and go out of your way to misinterpret what he says. If you're not clear on this (Engels certainly wasn't, as his infamous essay "On Authority" demonstrates) here's a video from Anark specifically addressing that concept and how it is to be understood in most of Anarchist theory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFZZiRmZxoU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFZZiRmZxoU If you think the video "re-invents hierarchy" maybe you can spell out where you think it does that. It won't be a snappy one-liner that makes you sound witty but it might be conducive to an actual conversation.