3 ms·
Once you reach terminal (IC5), promotion velocity doesn't matter. Up or out is only for IC3-4.
by loeg 3y ago
Once you reach terminal (IC5), promotion velocity doesn't matter. Up or out is only for IC3-4.
- riku_iki 3y agodo they really fire someone who couldn't get to this level in N years?
- fnfjfk 3y agoYes, the theory is that IC3/4 cost more than they produce. That being said it's really not that hard to advance at these junior levels, very little to do with politics and very much to do with becoming a competent and independently-productive engineer.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- loeg 3y agoI would describe it as IC3/4s are more of a job training program for IC5, which they actually want.
- hvdtbb 3y ago[dead]
- toast0 3y agoYes. I don't know how it works at other places, but at FB, according to the manager training I went through, after you were in a 'non-terminal' position beyond the time limit, they would evaluate you according to the rubric for the next level up. Presumably, you would get bad reviews because you weren't doing the things for that level (it wasn't clear to me if you would be told that you were going to be evaluated at that level), and then you'd get on a 'performance improvement plan' and then likely terminated. Thankfully, I wasn't a manager for long, and didn't have to see that happen.
- ShamelessC 3y agoYet another reason to never work there.
- scruple 3y agoyeah, for sure, but it's not just Google.
- loeg 3y agoFacebook explicitly does, yes.
- hvdtbb 3y ago[dead]
- _delirium 3y agoDidn’t Google change the lowest terminal level from L5 to L4 a few years ago?
- jader201 3y agoYes. Of course, each org is different, and some orgs still might expect growth at L4, even if growth = “approaching L5”. But some orgs may be fine with terminal MI (~CME) L4s.
- _delirium 3y agoI mostly found it notable that it's official enough for it to be an announced change in policy. At some places the "up or out" is more of an unofficial expectation, but my understanding from Google friends is that Google literally announced to employees (around 2019 I think?) that it's ok to stay at L4 now and a promotion to L5 is no longer required to keep your job. At the time it was interpreted as a cost-saving measure, that they wanted to slow down promotion pressure to reduce salary growth. Would be curious if these terminal vs non-terminal levels are formalized at other places too? Given that L3 is basically entry-level at Google, it also suggests that they aren't doing much up-or-out anymore. Basically you only have to get promoted once?
- fnordpiglet 3y agoHaving been in OLR/calibrations/etc at several FAANG and FAANG adjacent at a pretty senior level it always matters. Specifically when layoffs or top grading comes around the people with potential to advance are always more highly valued. Up and out never ends.
- moandcompany 3y agoAlso having been in FAANG calibrations, even when people are at so-called "terminal levels" the performance ratings distribution rules still become a problem. There are often team members that are at terminal levels, not interested in promotion, but doing well relative to their level standard (i.e. performing at or near the next levels). Those team members often won't be happy with a "meets" rating and still expect a rating and bonus multiplier above "meets." Meanwhile, had they been promoted, they'd probably be a solid "meets" and another team member that wants/deserve a promotion needs those above-meets ratings too. Ratings distributions usually aren't bound to just one single level, nor are they done with all levels as a single bucket, but within certain level groups, having a terminal level + rating distribution shaping is an issue.
- red-iron-pine 3y agobeen FAANG adjacent a few times, but in several of F500s, and in different industries/verticals. no "official" up-or-out in any of those, but definitely a thing in all of them. at a mid-to-senior level or above you're getting paid -- not FAANG pay, but in most cases pretty solid -- and you need to justify your existence. If you're not getting "atta-boys" on the regular then you're gonna get chopped. One place fired all of the Architects, for example, because they felt they didn't really do much. Three quarters of "what does this team do to deliver" and they were gone.
- loeg 3y agoYeah, delivering on expectations for your current level is a given requirement. That's very different from "up or out."
- scruple 3y agoHave seen this and later experienced it. Not going to go into anecdotes / details.