8 ms·

No, I meant FreeBSD, though NetBSD is (much) further on the same spectrum. If I read that Darwin or NT were looking at using Rust, I'd figure that was easy enou

No, I meant FreeBSD, though NetBSD is (much) further on the same spectrum. If I read that Darwin or NT were looking at using Rust, I'd figure that was easy enough; they more or less only target x86 and ARM, which are mostly well-covered by Rust. If NetBSD said they were moving to Rust... I dunno, I'd assume that either Rust had really changed their approach to platform support, or that NetBSD as I knew it had ceased to exist. OpenBSD is actually also on that far end of the spectrum, because they care even more about self-hosting, which means that the inability of rustc to actually run (or at least self-host) on 32-bit x86 is a hard blocker. FreeBSD is in the middle; I knew they don't intend to hit as many hardware platforms as their siblings, but I still thought they had broader coverage than rustc. And (per the page I linked) they used to, but as of the latest releases they've been really cutting down their targets. Which... I dunno, it's practical, but still sad. I guess there's at least still OpenBSD and NetBSD to cover portability.

tialaramex 3y ago
Darwin isn't going to do Rust. Apple's plan is that Swift can be made to do everything necessary for their operating system. Since Apple are bad at doing more than one thing, they've settled on the idea of a single successor language, chosen under advice but by senior management. So, Swift. Unless it proves impossible to use Swift (and I doubt it) that's what they'll do. For everything above the line, Swift is definitely viable today. Expect shiny new stuff from Apple to be Swift first, or even sometimes Swift only. If you're an Apple First developer, you should learn Swift, or you are going to be relegated to maintaining legacy software in the next maybe 3-5 years. Microsoft is already solidly on the Rust bandwagon. So yes, Rust for NT is very possible. Unlike Apple though the Microsoft corporation has always been able to do a bunch of things at once, even if it doesn't always do them all well -- it doesn't need a singular focus to achieve success. So don't expect Microsoft to magically pull effort off C++ and .NET to do more Rust.
- steveklabnik 3y ago
  > Since Apple are bad at doing more than one thing, they've settled on the idea of a single successor language, chosen under advice but by senior management. So, Swift. Apple has been using Rust for years, and I'm not aware of any decisions to move away from that, though given how secretive they are, I guess that could be a possibility. > So yes, Rust for NT is very possible. Rust is already being shipped (in preview) in Windows' kernel.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Apple's John McCall makes a picture of where they are going with Swift in "Introducing a Memory-Safe Successor Language in Large C++ Code Bases" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgivCGdmFrw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgivCGdmFrw
    - steveklabnik 3y ago
      Of course Apple continues to invest into Swift, making it better and writing more code in it. There's no doubt about that. This is an hour long talk. I don't see anything in the slides that indicates that Apple management has decreed that Swift is the sole successor language to C++, forsaking all others, and winding down their Rust codebases. Could you help me find out where that is in this talk?
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        There are zero references to Rust on that talk. It is all about C, C++, Objective-C and how Apple is replacing them with Swift. Rust isn't even shown on languages in use at Apple, https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=284 https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=284 As for tracking down the exact minutes of each Swift reference, maybe I will try to find some time on my side to prove me right on the Internet.
        steveklabnik 3y ago
        What I am saying is that you aren't wrong, just that it comes across as a bit of a non-sequitur. The comment I was replying to says that Swift is the only language for the future. I am pushing back about that and that only. Of course they're not abandoning Swift. Of course they're moving away (in many cases) from C and C++. That doesn't imply that Swift is the only tool they will use, or that they're reversing course from the codebases they've already ported to Rust.
        pjmlp 3y ago
        So I got some time to go through the video, - Overview of C, C++, Objective-C and Objective-C++ history on Apple platforms From https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=169 https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=169 to https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=306 https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=306 - How Swift fits into the picture https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=317 https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=317 Key statements. "Apple is very serious making Swift viable anywhere on this chart..." Meaning a chart showing "UI Apps, Portable utililities, Platform libraries, Portable libraries, Kernel and below." "...that is because we feel we need a successor language anywhere on this chart, so we are putting Swift at the kernel and below, as well as, platform libraries, and not just UI application, and we think it is a very important future for the language, we are very commited to it" Up to https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=352 https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=352 - Basic Expectations "We need to focus on adding one sucessor language" "Every language we add comes with extra complexity, in terms of tooling, XCode support, build system support and so on, as well as, language problems making them interoperate" "We have four precessor languages, we don't want four sucessor languages" "Should be accessible as first language, for people coming into our platform" From https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=360 https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=360 to https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=411 https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=411 "At the same time, if we want to make it usable in kernel, we need to provide enough control to make it usable in such environments" "In particular that means being able to scale down to a minimal runtime" From https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=420 https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=420 to https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=493 https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=493 - Problems with C https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=493 https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=493 - Overview of Swift "So we feel pretty strongly, obviously at Apple our sucessor language is Swift and I am here to talk about features of Swift, both to try to sell you on to it, but also to talk about the things we think are pretty necessary and the ways in which a programming language can support, you know, clear code, safer and more correct code." "Like I said before, Apple has always intended for Swift to be a sucessor language for all of our predecessors, from the top to the bottom of our stack, accessible to novices, powerful enough for experts, it is real a tall order. From https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=1996 https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=1996 to https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=2042 https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=2042 Quite clear that Swift is the future and zero mentions of Rust.
- saagarjha 3y ago
  Apple is juggling Swift and bounds-checked C together just fine last I checked.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Apple's John McCall makes a picture of where they are going with Swift in "Introducing a Memory-Safe Successor Language in Large C++ Code Bases" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgivCGdmFrw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgivCGdmFrw
- pjmlp 3y ago
  On what concerns XBox there is little Rust love on Microsoft's side they are all about C++ and COM, and even on Windows, there are only some little experiements ongoing like the GDI regions rewrite that in now on Windows 11. It remains to be seen if Rust/WinRT will ever take off, given the mess that the same team has done with C++/WinRT, now in maintenance. .NET based GUI frameworks seem to have won to that front, no wonder given how bad the C++/WinRT experience end up being, and Rust/WinRT is years away to achieve parity with C++/WinRT, let alone what .NET GUI frameworks can offer today in ecosystem, and GUI components. Where Microsoft is going big on Rust, is Azure, where Rust is now the official systems language for new development on use cases where managed compiled languages aren't a fit. This was announced at Prossimo's conference in memory safety systems, by David Weston, the vice president of OS security at Microsoft. https://twitter.com/dwizzzleMSFT/status/1720134540822520268?s=20 https://twitter.com/dwizzzleMSFT/status/1720134540822520268?...

tialaramex 3y ago

Darwin isn't going to do Rust. Apple's plan is that Swift can be made to do everything necessary for their operating system. Since Apple are bad at doing more than one thing, they've settled on the idea of a single successor language, chosen under advice but by senior management. So, Swift. Unless it proves impossible to use Swift (and I doubt it) that's what they'll do. For everything above the line, Swift is definitely viable today. Expect shiny new stuff from Apple to be Swift first, or even sometimes Swift only. If you're an Apple First developer, you should learn Swift, or you are going to be relegated to maintaining legacy software in the next maybe 3-5 years. Microsoft is already solidly on the Rust bandwagon. So yes, Rust for NT is very possible. Unlike Apple though the Microsoft corporation has always been able to do a bunch of things at once, even if it doesn't always do them all well -- it doesn't need a singular focus to achieve success. So don't expect Microsoft to magically pull effort off C++ and .NET to do more Rust.

steveklabnik 3y ago
> Since Apple are bad at doing more than one thing, they've settled on the idea of a single successor language, chosen under advice but by senior management. So, Swift. Apple has been using Rust for years, and I'm not aware of any decisions to move away from that, though given how secretive they are, I guess that could be a possibility. > So yes, Rust for NT is very possible. Rust is already being shipped (in preview) in Windows' kernel.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Apple's John McCall makes a picture of where they are going with Swift in "Introducing a Memory-Safe Successor Language in Large C++ Code Bases" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgivCGdmFrw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgivCGdmFrw
  - steveklabnik 3y ago
    Of course Apple continues to invest into Swift, making it better and writing more code in it. There's no doubt about that. This is an hour long talk. I don't see anything in the slides that indicates that Apple management has decreed that Swift is the sole successor language to C++, forsaking all others, and winding down their Rust codebases. Could you help me find out where that is in this talk?
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      There are zero references to Rust on that talk. It is all about C, C++, Objective-C and how Apple is replacing them with Swift. Rust isn't even shown on languages in use at Apple, https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=284 https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=284 As for tracking down the exact minutes of each Swift reference, maybe I will try to find some time on my side to prove me right on the Internet.
      - steveklabnik 3y ago
        What I am saying is that you aren't wrong, just that it comes across as a bit of a non-sequitur. The comment I was replying to says that Swift is the only language for the future. I am pushing back about that and that only. Of course they're not abandoning Swift. Of course they're moving away (in many cases) from C and C++. That doesn't imply that Swift is the only tool they will use, or that they're reversing course from the codebases they've already ported to Rust.
        pjmlp 3y ago
        So I got some time to go through the video, - Overview of C, C++, Objective-C and Objective-C++ history on Apple platforms From https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=169 https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=169 to https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=306 https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=306 - How Swift fits into the picture https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=317 https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=317 Key statements. "Apple is very serious making Swift viable anywhere on this chart..." Meaning a chart showing "UI Apps, Portable utililities, Platform libraries, Portable libraries, Kernel and below." "...that is because we feel we need a successor language anywhere on this chart, so we are putting Swift at the kernel and below, as well as, platform libraries, and not just UI application, and we think it is a very important future for the language, we are very commited to it" Up to https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=352 https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=352 - Basic Expectations "We need to focus on adding one sucessor language" "Every language we add comes with extra complexity, in terms of tooling, XCode support, build system support and so on, as well as, language problems making them interoperate" "We have four precessor languages, we don't want four sucessor languages" "Should be accessible as first language, for people coming into our platform" From https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=360 https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=360 to https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=411 https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=411 "At the same time, if we want to make it usable in kernel, we need to provide enough control to make it usable in such environments" "In particular that means being able to scale down to a minimal runtime" From https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=420 https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=420 to https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=493 https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=493 - Problems with C https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=493 https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=493 - Overview of Swift "So we feel pretty strongly, obviously at Apple our sucessor language is Swift and I am here to talk about features of Swift, both to try to sell you on to it, but also to talk about the things we think are pretty necessary and the ways in which a programming language can support, you know, clear code, safer and more correct code." "Like I said before, Apple has always intended for Swift to be a sucessor language for all of our predecessors, from the top to the bottom of our stack, accessible to novices, powerful enough for experts, it is real a tall order. From https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=1996 https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=1996 to https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=2042 https://youtu.be/lgivCGdmFrw?t=2042 Quite clear that Swift is the future and zero mentions of Rust.
saagarjha 3y ago
Apple is juggling Swift and bounds-checked C together just fine last I checked.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Apple's John McCall makes a picture of where they are going with Swift in "Introducing a Memory-Safe Successor Language in Large C++ Code Bases" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgivCGdmFrw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgivCGdmFrw
pjmlp 3y ago
On what concerns XBox there is little Rust love on Microsoft's side they are all about C++ and COM, and even on Windows, there are only some little experiements ongoing like the GDI regions rewrite that in now on Windows 11. It remains to be seen if Rust/WinRT will ever take off, given the mess that the same team has done with C++/WinRT, now in maintenance. .NET based GUI frameworks seem to have won to that front, no wonder given how bad the C++/WinRT experience end up being, and Rust/WinRT is years away to achieve parity with C++/WinRT, let alone what .NET GUI frameworks can offer today in ecosystem, and GUI components. Where Microsoft is going big on Rust, is Azure, where Rust is now the official systems language for new development on use cases where managed compiled languages aren't a fit. This was announced at Prossimo's conference in memory safety systems, by David Weston, the vice president of OS security at Microsoft. https://twitter.com/dwizzzleMSFT/status/1720134540822520268?s=20 https://twitter.com/dwizzzleMSFT/status/1720134540822520268?...