3 ms·

> We need more women in our field. Why?

robin_reala 3y ago
OK, I’ll take the question at face value: programmers build systems on computers that interface with the real world and hence real users. If you want to build systems that work well for users then you need to understand the problems those users have. Having a wide spread of life experience in the industry will lead to a greater chance that a greater spread of users will have their problems solved by digital systems.
- globular-toast 3y ago
  Sounds contrived to me but I'll give the benefit of the doubt. Is there any evidence that women have more trouble with computer programs or are less well served compared to men? Even if so, wouldn't that require more female product owners etc rather than more programmers?
  - Mountain_Skies 3y ago
    Things do come up sometimes but it's a question of do you need exact 50:50 representation or is it enough to ensure there's a voice for each sex. danah boyd pointed out to VR researchers she was working with that their product was "sexist" because it made assumptions about vision that were far more true for males than females. But she used the word sexist in a narrow way to just point out that vision fact, not to make a moral judgement or imply any intention. It's worth noting that she was able to point this out on her own. She didn't need the team she was working with to be 50% female for her to have this insight and share it with everyone else.
    - doublerebel 3y ago
      VR/AR/XR is a very good example. Meta’s headsets and most 3rd party straps still default to a top strap that runs along the center of the head front to back. For any woman that wears their hair in a ponytail or bun this is a no-go. That design makes it really hard to demo product to 50+% of the population. I always seek out replacement straps that have an extra front strap instead of a center strap for this reason. And still very few men who work in the industry are aware of this despite that I’ve been working in AR/VR for a decade. This might seem like a product failure, but in a software company there are far more programmers than product managers. It would only take a couple females writing software for the headset all day to point out how uncomfortable it is.
      - globular-toast 3y ago
        Sorry but a) men can wear pony tails and b) women don't have to wear their hair in pony tails. Are motorcycle helmets and other safety gear bad because they don't allow pony tails? Should they compromise on the strap design just to allow one particular hairstyle? Female specific stuff is a thing and yeah you definitely need to design clothing for women (with several different shapes), but your argument is stretching and just looking for a problem to justify the wanting more female programmer thing.
    - bookofjoe 3y ago
      [flagged]
- Mountain_Skies 3y ago
  Business analyst, project manager, product manager, UI/UX designer... those are all roles that do what you're describing. Doesn't hurt of the programmers to have a hand in things too but usability and functionality really aren't their responsibility on most projects beyond the trivial. If any of those roles are mainly one sex, then that might be an issue.
HeatrayEnjoyer 3y ago
[dead]
jl6 3y ago
Two non-egalitarian reasons might be: * The kind of teams that are hostile to female programmers are usually hostile about lots of other things too, and hence are less pleasant places to work. * Female programmers tend to be better communicators than male programmers. While all the “true wizards” I have known have been male, you need wizardry about 1% of the time, but you need to communicate about 100% of the time.
analog31 3y ago
My own take is if something is that valuable, it should be owned by everybody.
askvictor 3y ago
To flip the question around: why is it OK to have industries (any industry, really) dominated by men?
- hypertele-Xii 3y ago
  Yeah, it's unfair to women that men get to do all the plumbing, mining, construction, warfare, etc. demand equality!
- barelyauser 3y ago
  It is OK because caring is loving. From those who can, for those who need. If a profession demands masculine traits (consider underground mining) then it should be performed by those who can make the most of it. If we insist on having under performing people on those positions based on some ideology then all will suffer . When someone dies we will have to face the reality that the cure could have been here now if the local mining facility had produced more steel, to make one more car, to get that researcher to the lab in time, to produce the cure. Everything has consequences, and it is logical that we should do our best.
  - askvictor 3y ago
    Sure, some industries have some natural gendered 'preferences'. But a lot are historical. Women have only been in the workforce for 100 odd years, and there is decreasing desire/need to be having babies all of the time. And in some professions, the gender divide is more of a self-perpetuating cycle (there are examples of this for both sexes), based on the historical workforce, rather than being inherently suited to one sex.
- the_third_wave 3y ago
  And to flip that around again, why is it OK to have the majority of college admissions going to women? Especially in some fields women dominate, e.g. 95% of veterinary students are women. Is that OK and if so, why is the opposite a problem?
- globular-toast 3y ago
  Given that men and women are very different, if people are allowed to or even incentivised to do what they are good at and/or want to do then of course you will end up with industries being more or less dominated by either gender. The only way you won't get that is by not allowing people to do what they're good at because of their genitalia which I think is very much not ok. Or perhaps if men and women weren't very different, which they obviously are.

OK, I’ll take the question at face value: programmers build systems on computers that interface with the real world and hence real users. If you want to build systems that work well for users then you need to understand the problems those users have. Having a wide spread of life experience in the industry will lead to a greater chance that a greater spread of users will have their problems solved by digital systems.

globular-toast 3y ago
Sounds contrived to me but I'll give the benefit of the doubt. Is there any evidence that women have more trouble with computer programs or are less well served compared to men? Even if so, wouldn't that require more female product owners etc rather than more programmers?
- Mountain_Skies 3y ago
  Things do come up sometimes but it's a question of do you need exact 50:50 representation or is it enough to ensure there's a voice for each sex. danah boyd pointed out to VR researchers she was working with that their product was "sexist" because it made assumptions about vision that were far more true for males than females. But she used the word sexist in a narrow way to just point out that vision fact, not to make a moral judgement or imply any intention. It's worth noting that she was able to point this out on her own. She didn't need the team she was working with to be 50% female for her to have this insight and share it with everyone else.
  - doublerebel 3y ago
    VR/AR/XR is a very good example. Meta’s headsets and most 3rd party straps still default to a top strap that runs along the center of the head front to back. For any woman that wears their hair in a ponytail or bun this is a no-go. That design makes it really hard to demo product to 50+% of the population. I always seek out replacement straps that have an extra front strap instead of a center strap for this reason. And still very few men who work in the industry are aware of this despite that I’ve been working in AR/VR for a decade. This might seem like a product failure, but in a software company there are far more programmers than product managers. It would only take a couple females writing software for the headset all day to point out how uncomfortable it is.
    - globular-toast 3y ago
      Sorry but a) men can wear pony tails and b) women don't have to wear their hair in pony tails. Are motorcycle helmets and other safety gear bad because they don't allow pony tails? Should they compromise on the strap design just to allow one particular hairstyle? Female specific stuff is a thing and yeah you definitely need to design clothing for women (with several different shapes), but your argument is stretching and just looking for a problem to justify the wanting more female programmer thing.
  - bookofjoe 3y ago
    [flagged]
Mountain_Skies 3y ago
Business analyst, project manager, product manager, UI/UX designer... those are all roles that do what you're describing. Doesn't hurt of the programmers to have a hand in things too but usability and functionality really aren't their responsibility on most projects beyond the trivial. If any of those roles are mainly one sex, then that might be an issue.

HeatrayEnjoyer 3y ago

[dead]

jl6 3y ago

Two non-egalitarian reasons might be: * The kind of teams that are hostile to female programmers are usually hostile about lots of other things too, and hence are less pleasant places to work. * Female programmers tend to be better communicators than male programmers. While all the “true wizards” I have known have been male, you need wizardry about 1% of the time, but you need to communicate about 100% of the time.

analog31 3y ago

My own take is if something is that valuable, it should be owned by everybody.

askvictor 3y ago

To flip the question around: why is it OK to have industries (any industry, really) dominated by men?

hypertele-Xii 3y ago
Yeah, it's unfair to women that men get to do all the plumbing, mining, construction, warfare, etc. demand equality!
barelyauser 3y ago
It is OK because caring is loving. From those who can, for those who need. If a profession demands masculine traits (consider underground mining) then it should be performed by those who can make the most of it. If we insist on having under performing people on those positions based on some ideology then all will suffer . When someone dies we will have to face the reality that the cure could have been here now if the local mining facility had produced more steel, to make one more car, to get that researcher to the lab in time, to produce the cure. Everything has consequences, and it is logical that we should do our best.
- askvictor 3y ago
  Sure, some industries have some natural gendered 'preferences'. But a lot are historical. Women have only been in the workforce for 100 odd years, and there is decreasing desire/need to be having babies all of the time. And in some professions, the gender divide is more of a self-perpetuating cycle (there are examples of this for both sexes), based on the historical workforce, rather than being inherently suited to one sex.
the_third_wave 3y ago
And to flip that around again, why is it OK to have the majority of college admissions going to women? Especially in some fields women dominate, e.g. 95% of veterinary students are women. Is that OK and if so, why is the opposite a problem?
globular-toast 3y ago
Given that men and women are very different, if people are allowed to or even incentivised to do what they are good at and/or want to do then of course you will end up with industries being more or less dominated by either gender. The only way you won't get that is by not allowing people to do what they're good at because of their genitalia which I think is very much not ok. Or perhaps if men and women weren't very different, which they obviously are.