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Huawei claims HarmonyOS NEXT kernel is more efficient than Linux
- geor9e 3y agoHuawei is suspected of being a secret arm of the Chinese intelligence agencies. Of course they want the world to replace the Linux kernel with theirs.
- riidom 3y agoEverybody who has a kernel would probably like to replace the linux kernel with theirs.
- LordShredda 3y agoIs google not a secret arm of american intelligence agencies? They own half of the world's phones
- aa_is_op 3y agoNo... lol. The amount of people who believe this garbage is amazing. Huawei has literal PRC members on its board and the PRC funded it with billions of dollars. Do I have to remind you that Chinese state-sponsored hackers broke into Cisco and other western firms and intellectual property stolen from those companies ended up in Huawei products? Do you have anything similar to show how the US government personally helped Google?
- gpderetta 3y agoWhile PRC steals IP from Cisco, generous NSA "gifts" Cisco with its own IP.
- beavermatic 3y agoNSA has developed a crap-ton of stuff they just pass on to opensource... Like SELinux which is in quite a few major distros these days. Even US Naval Research labs developed the infamous TOR concept and toolkits. Yes, thats right... all the folks scouring the deep/dark web are literally using tools developed by the US government, lol. Here's a ton more opensource stuff developed or contributed to by the NSA: https://code.nsa.gov/ https://code.nsa.gov/
- adolph 3y agoGiven the transitive property, does that mean the NSA “gifts” IP to the PRC? Edit: clearly it is wrong, terribly wrong, for Federal dollars to be used as such a gift to the PRC.
- aa_is_op 3y agoSource for this? Or you just pulled it from a Substack newsletter with 5 followers? What exactly does "gifting Cisco with its own IP" means? And please be generous with your conspiracy theory links.
- tansan 3y agoWhoa I didn't know this. Is there a documentary on this?
- aa_is_op 3y agoLiterally one google search away: https://www.wired.com/story/us-hits-huawei-new-charges-trade-secret-theft/ https://www.wired.com/story/us-hits-huawei-new-charges-trade...
- hilbert42 3y agoNo doubt what you say about the PRC is true. That said, I'd be damned surprised if Huawei's claims about HarmonyOS aren't true. Likely claims about performance are exaggerated but with the hindsight of Linux and Android and then starting afresh even moderate performers ought to be able to do better. Of course, I wouldn't trust HarmonyOS farther than I could throw it but that's nothing to do with performance.
- 6510 3y ago> Do you have anything similar to show how the US government personally helped Google? Ah you want to know about THE CONSPIRACY. O well, since you've asked. The story is this! Apparently the US gov has some 50000+ different entities, county's, schools etc each with many little jars of earmarked monies for little this and that's, few hundred million here, a billion or 2 there, they are quite a lot of jars, A LOT, but the money isn't just sitting there collecting dust. Much of the money has been invested. Government in that way is not just in bed with big business. They are 2 heads on the same body. The USA in that way is more communist than the ccp and cccp combined. I'm not sure how true the story is, I haven't the time to read all the documents. It does make for a quality campfire story. https://web.archive.org/web/20191001201707/https://cafr1.com/CAFR-Examples.html https://web.archive.org/web/20191001201707/https://cafr1.com...
- hulitu 3y ago> Do I have to remind you that Chinese state-sponsored hackers broke into Cisco Do i have to remind you that Cisco had remote accessible backdors, maybe planted by the US government ? /s Why use double standards ? (Of course, as long as you don't have anything to hide, it is no problem)
- threeseed 3y agoa) Google owns about 5% of US phones and 0.5% globally. b) Android is an open operating system which you would need to modify in order to implement undetectable data collection strategies. No evidence to date that the US agencies have modified the OS.
- hammyhavoc 3y agoc) It doesn't matter whether it runs unmodified AOSP if supply chain attacks are a thing at both a hardware and firmware level. https://www.hackster.io/news/researchers-spot-silicon-level-hardware-trojans-in-chips-release-their-algorithm-for-all-to-try-ba00bbd56248 https://www.hackster.io/news/researchers-spot-silicon-level-... People like to worry about big organizations, govs and corporations, but these threats are implemented by single human beings and can be exploited by single human beings who know of them.
- beebeepka 3y agoGoogle pretty much exploded 8n size around 2003 which, as luck would have it, coincided with a major US led invasion of oil rich country and major US companies being asked to spy on everyone.
- geor9e 3y agoGoogle phones all run on top of Linux kernel. Google doesn't make a kernel. Well, technically they make Fuchsia, but that kernel only ever shipped on a sum total of 3 smart display devices.
- kelipso 3y agoFor all practical purposes, it's Android and the use of Android/google services that relevant in this context and not Linux.
- colechristensen 3y agoThere’s just a lot more connection between Chinese business and government, saying they’re “suspected” of this is a bit odd.
- fnordpiglet 3y agoFunny how communism implies collective ownership of the means of production.
- ijhuygft776 3y agoIf you are from the USA, it's probably safer for you to be spied on by the Chinese government rather then the U.S. government... unless you plan to ever visit China.
- geor9e 3y ago96% of servers run on the Linux kernel - your banks, your military, your tech companies. With leaked secrets comes power. I'd rather it not siphon to the CCP. Not a fan of them. I know it's trendy to criticize America, and some of it's valid, but I'd prefer it over the CCP.
- AtlasBarfed 3y ago[flagged]
- geor9e 3y agoCCP backdoors are 3x as memory efficient
- wkat4242 3y agoAs 'independent' as the original HarmonyOS? I mean that was claimed by Huawei to be a completely new OS and was exposed to be just an android skin and nothing more: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-huaweis-android-killer-is-just-android/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/harmonyos-hands-on-h... I mean, perhaps this time it is true. But they don't have a great track record in this regard. Also, how do they manage the app gap? Or is it still compatible with android and then, how do they manage this without a ton of translation layers?
- realusername 3y agoThe naming itself is suspicious to me as well, "Harmony NEXT" kind of sounds like "this time for real"
- Synaesthesia 3y agoThe new version will not be compatible with Android. Quote: Currently, over 200 HarmonyOS native applications are in development, covering a wide range of commonly used apps. More than half of China’s Top-200 mobile apps have initiated the development of HarmonyOS native applications. The HarmonyOS developer community is growing rapidly, with over 10,000 new registrations daily. https://sparrowsnews.com/2024/01/18/huawei-harmonyos-next-official-now/ https://sparrowsnews.com/2024/01/18/huawei-harmonyos-next-of...
- wkat4242 3y agoAh but then how do they fix the app gap (as was my original question) I mean 200 apps are not a lot. Microsoft had a lot more when they cancelled Windows phone. This basically makes it a non starter outside of China. Even there, more than half of the top-200? I doubt that will fly even there. Who wants to buy a phone that can do only half the stuff of everyone else's?
- threeseed 3y ago> Who wants to buy a phone that can do only half the stuff of everyone else's At some point there won't be a choice. The real issue will be whether apps like WeChat will be made available on iOS/Android or whether the CCP will force customers abroad to buy Chinese phones in order to use them. That would have major security implications.
- jrockway 3y agoMemory efficient, it says. So I guess they got rid of 1/3 of the fields from task_struct? Amazing.
- lambdasquirrel 3y agoI wouldn’t blow it off that quickly. It probably took a bit of homework to think through what they could get rid of and what they couldn’t. Of course, depending on how far-reaching the changes are, it might be a PITA to maintain a separate fork of the kernel.
- cbsmith 3y agoKind of a nonsense headline. The claim is that it is 3x more efficient with memory than Linux. What it actually means is that it has a kernel that is a fraction of the size of the Linux kernel. At the core of HarmonyOS is LiteOS, which has a tiny real-time kernel that is, indeed, much smaller than the Linux kernel. This is hardly the first time we've seen a design with a real-time kernel that hosts a Linux runtime on top. RTLinux/Wind River Linux have the same design.
- sgt 3y agoI thought HarmonyOS used the Linux kernel for larger devices, and LiteOS was more for smaller IoT, wearables, etc?
- cbsmith 3y agoThey call it "multikernel", but it's really more the standard "microkernel hosting kernels" model. On small devices, they don't include the Linux support, but it supports a Linux Kernel Abstraction Layer that in turn hosts a modified ASOP. You can find similar examples of this all across the real-time OS space. Other examples include QNX and the NT Kernel, which traditionally hosted the Windows "personality".
- Veserv 3y agoLinks to their Common Criteria EAL6+ certification for their microkernel: https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/epfiles/nscib-cc-0618835-cr.pdf https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/epfiles/nscib-cc-... https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/epfiles/huawei_h_st-v2.0.pdf https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/epfiles/huawei_h_...
- zimmerfrei 3y agoThat's still described as a kernel for the TEE (like OPTEE is), it doesn't look like a replacement for Linux, which runs in the REE.
- feverzsj 3y agoIt's just another modified Linux, like what they did to Android. Mobile phones in China will soon be forced to install this system. All your daily activities will be reported to the Big Brother. And it's not a joke.
- Unfrozen0688 3y agoHuawei phones, right? Not all phones?
- daliz 3y agoIt sounds a lot like Europe nowadays.
- aa_is_op 3y agoWhat are you talking about? No country in the EU forces you to do this. Can you take your political comments out of a tech forum please.
- 7734128 3y agohttps://www.lemonde.fr/en/france/article/2023/07/06/france-set-to-allow-police-to-spy-through-phones_6044269_7.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/france/article/2023/07/06/france-s...
- aa_is_op 3y agoThat's like comparing apples with cowbells. It's one thing to mandate a spyware component on all the phones in your country and it's another thing to conduct surveillance using court orders against criminal suspects.
- jvdvegt 3y agoCould you elaborate on that?
- mantas 3y ago
- DotaFan 3y agoCan't imagine anyone relying on Chinese technology at this day and age. Most of the stuff is copycat of western tech.
- cpursley 3y agoCan we stop with this lazy and racist trope already? https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/patents-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/patents-b...
- threeseed 3y agoIt's not racist to be wary of relying on Chinese technology. The country is a pretty vicious dictatorship without any of the norms e.g. independent judiciary, free media etc we would want. Which combined with the fact that the government routinely injects itself into how private businesses run means you can't depend on any consistent set of rules.
- pjmlp 3y ago"The Costs of Unlawful US Detentions and Interrogations Post-9/11" https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/01/09/legacy-dark-side https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/01/09/legacy-dark-side "Globalizing Torture: CIA Secret Detention and Extraordinary Rendition" https://www.justiceinitiative.org/publications/globalizing-torture-cia-secret-detention-and-extraordinary-rendition https://www.justiceinitiative.org/publications/globalizing-t...
- threeseed 3y agoAnd China detains and tortures people as well. Not sure what that has to do with technology.
- kergonath 3y ago“But what about this entirely unrelated thing”? Also, why do so many trolls assume that anyone who criticise a second or third world country is automatically American? I will say this as a non-American: the US are great for a lot of things and terrible for a lot of others. They have a lot to answer for, and what you mention is barely scratching the surface, as for any country with a bit of history. I still don’t want China to have any control over what happens here and I am still never buying anything from Huawei. Same for Russia, for that matter.
- calgarymicro 3y agoRegarding their mobile OS, Huawei has previously made claims[0] several years ago that it would be "60% faster" than Android and that "one line of Harmony OS code can do 100 lines of Android code". Does anyone know if these claims ever panned out? That would inform how seriously I take any newer claims they make about performance. [0]https://cellularnews.com/mobile-operating-systems/harmony-os-by-huawei-everything-you-need-to-know/ https://cellularnews.com/mobile-operating-systems/harmony-os...
- al_borland 3y agoI have to assume any time someone says a line of X can do 100 lines Y, there is a lot of abstraction they aren’t accounting for.
- the_third_wave 3y agoIt is probably true, at least in one case: if (current_data.scan(current_interests.sync())) { report_to_mothership(current_data); } That is 99 lines shorter than the Android-version of this routine.
- throwaway4good 3y agoFor anyone who is interested in the technical details, there is extensive developer documentation covering version 3 in English here: https://www.harmonyos.com/en/ https://www.harmonyos.com/en/ If you browse that you can see that the project has already moved quite a bit away from its Android Open Source roots. The next version appears to be based on a new micro-kernel similarly to Google Fuchsia, ditch what remains of Android, support phone, tablet and desktop devices. And there is a rumour of a new programming language too.
- mise_en_place 3y agoVery light on the details. At least with TempleOS, Terry would walk through why he made certain design decisions. This “OS” seems like a marketing gimmick.
- hilbert42 3y agoBut TempleOS is hardly HarmonyOS or Android both in performance and on an economic scale. There is essentially no comparison.
- jauntywundrkind 3y agoHarmonyOS (pre NEXT) has some really interesting ideas in it, where the software architecture is backed by a distributed bus DSoftBus. So apps and appliances kind of semi-seamlessly mesh across systems in interesting ways. I'd love to see & learn more & get real hands-on experience with HarmonyOS. Alas the story was already flakey. You can sign up for a free Huawei developer account, by sending them your passport and bank account information... Which seems like a tall ask to me for a company anywhere on this planet, & this is low on the list of companies I feel I can trust. They released a ton of open source code as OpenHarmony in September 2020, and that's been iterating along. China literally made its first open source software foundation to support the effort & carry it forward: OpenAtom, with all the big names lined up to support it. There's computers, medical, vehicle, and energy applications of the tech, mostly under development or starting to be released. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenAtom_Foundation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenAtom_Foundation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenHarmony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenHarmony Hypothetically we can go download the oodles of source ourselves & play with OpenHarmony. But I haven't found any guides or documentation to show how it's done. Progress seems steady on; 4.1 is due soon. https://gitee.com/openharmony https://gitee.com/openharmony HarmonyOS NEXT sounds like it is an interesting real series of next steps towards their homegrown imagined world. But it also is very unclear to me what the future relation is between Huawei's HarmonOS NEXT and OpenHarmony is going to look like. So far it seems like OpenHarmony is kind of being left behind, and that Huawei is building more or less a better newer commercial OS that scales up and down in size, that maybe is somewhat intercompatible with existing OpenHarmony, but which is not generally available like OpenHarmony was. I could be totally wrong, maybe the open source will continue, but I've seen this NEXT news more with alarm & concern than hope. I do wish the west was paying a little more attention, and assessing Harmony on Harmony's ground, versus endlessly bickering about Linux and Android. Ark UI is a vaguely interesting extension to typescript for making UIs; I see a QT :: C++ vibe happening again. DSoftBus is conceptually super interesting as a ubiquitous & pervasive computing platform that's light-years past Matter's first filing steps; rather than carefully cobbled together Matter devices from a huge SDK and elaborate schemas & protocols, there's a connected object bus that promises to kind of just work & integrate elegantly with everyday development of everything you do. There's interesting stuff here, and frankly OSes are in a long boring doldrums of not doing much. It's a pity that just getting started is so unclear, so hard. And it'll be interesting to see how OlenAtom/OpenHarmony gets treated going forwards, whether the fellowship is broken or whether these companies can help each other succeed together.