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Christianity isn't the only religion abused by flawed people to do bad things. Its more of a reflection of the people involved and not the religion. It's sad.

kevingadd 3y ago
Modern american evangelical christianity suffers from a particular moral rot that isn't unique to it but is also not common to other branches of the faith. Specifically, there's a firm conviction that once you're saved you remain saved, and you can find lots of people who behave as if as a result, nothing they do really matters. They can be selfish, they can be rude, they can be cruel, they can be unfaithful, and it's all fine in the end because they're still safe. They'll tell you of course that everyone should do their best, and they might even tell you that they're doing their best, but the basic tenets of their specific flavor of faith are essentially that Nothing Really Matters. The most extreme evangelical/nondenominational Christians take this especially far like the pastor in the article, and I feel bad for people of faith who have to share the same label with them. (for context, I worked in evangelical christian ministry for multiple years when I was younger)
- bloomingeek 3y ago
  Sadly, I agree. The "always saved" and "faith without fear" motto's give most the idea that humility doesn't matter anymore. Pastor's fill them up with their being special and elect, which is in the heavenly realm, not here on earth. The concept of servant-believers, for most, isn't even on their radar. 2015 was a sort of tipping point, IMO, that has caused a sort of paradigm shift in Christianity. (sorry, a little vague, but I'm still trying to understand all the changes.) My hope is that all Christianity will go back to basic tenets of faith, biblically taught.
  - chrismorgan 3y ago
    > biblically taught And there’s the key. If only people would read the Bible. If they would read even just Philippians 3:12 or Hebrews 10:26 or any of a number of other passages, they would see at once what heresy “once saved, always saved” is. But no, Christianity is too often just a club. Most people have no actual interest in the Bible. God has ever worked with minorities and remnants. Christianity strongly Bible-based will always be small by comparison. I rather like the way Dickens framed it in A Christmas Carol: > “There are some upon this earth of yours,” returned the Spirit, “who lay claim to know us, and who do their deeds of passion, pride, ill will, hatred, envy, bigotry, and selfishness in our name, who are as strange to us, and all our kith and kin, as if they had never lived. Remember that, and charge their doings on themselves, not us.”
    - fellowniusmonk 3y ago
      People we're talking about sending missionaries into the church in the late 90s for this reason, people railed against this rise of the influence of para-church organizations and multi-denominational initiatives. But the people who wanted to keep the definition of the american church a "small c" lost pretty thoroughly to the political action clubs. The SBC boycotts/cancelation of Disney in 1997 and the memetic cancelation of General Mills cereal was all outworkings from Jerry Falwells take over of american christian expression using Francis Schaeffers films to provide emotional impact and introduce new political reasoning and adopt what was previously "the roman catholic" issue of abortion as a primary political, religious and social wedge issue. That was the core "ratchet" issue. With Lamar Alexander, Alan Keyes and a few others politicians campaigning with extremely heavy religious strategies in republican primaries in 96 you see a turning point and culmination of the political work of Falwell and others through the 80s. It showed that there was effectively no pushback left among evangelicals to messaging that conflated Republican & Christian, the assimilation was sufficiently complete. Idk, there's almost an infinite amount of causes and drivers but there were a lot of bad turning points along the way. In what feels like a past life I actually went to a influential seminary in the early 00s, the few older professors we're academic and rigorous, the rest of the younger professors and the students themselves we're... bad, just really awful people with odd pathological relationships and furtive self serving behaviors, the amount of extremely insular "christian celebrity" worship was shocking to me at that age.
  - achileas 3y ago
    Your viewpoint is very American and very Protestant. A lot of these things you call changes I saw as a regular feature in the evangelical south in the early 00s. Going to “basic tenets” and doubling down on sola scriptura is just fundamentalism and is why evangelicals and the like are the way that they are. And they’re (relatively) modern inventions!
  - kevingadd 3y ago
    I call it moral rot specifically because I don't think it's a problem you can solve purely through biblical teaching or faith doctrine alone - you need to confront the mindset and the behavior, because ultimately a person's relationship with the god of their choice is a personal thing and not something we can exert control over. No matter how robust your biblical teaching is a person can still decide "it's between me and God, though" and choose to live in a morally flawed way because the bible gives them enough latitude to interpret it in a supportive way, as many people do. And in this context I think confronting the mindset is a valuable thing to do even if you are speaking with an atheist. Essentially, questions like: * If everyone adopted your mindset, what kind of world would we live in? * Do you think your friends and family would be proud of you if they knew you were acting this way? * Would you feel good if you knew all your friends and family were acting like you? * Are you acting in a way you might regret later in life?
- tourmalinetaco 3y ago
  Given my experiences with Catholics, I have a hard time believing it isn’t just as common across Christianity as a whole, at least in the US. And in that sense I would sooner say it is a failing of teaching and faith in The Lord, that atheist (and thus hedonistic) thoughts are more pervasive and people believe they can “trick the system” in the future.
manicennui 3y ago
The problem is a world view based on appeals to authority and nothing claimed about said authority can be proven or disproven.
AniseAbyss 3y ago
[dead]

kevingadd 3y ago

Modern american evangelical christianity suffers from a particular moral rot that isn't unique to it but is also not common to other branches of the faith. Specifically, there's a firm conviction that once you're saved you remain saved, and you can find lots of people who behave as if as a result, nothing they do really matters. They can be selfish, they can be rude, they can be cruel, they can be unfaithful, and it's all fine in the end because they're still safe. They'll tell you of course that everyone should do their best, and they might even tell you that they're doing their best, but the basic tenets of their specific flavor of faith are essentially that Nothing Really Matters. The most extreme evangelical/nondenominational Christians take this especially far like the pastor in the article, and I feel bad for people of faith who have to share the same label with them. (for context, I worked in evangelical christian ministry for multiple years when I was younger)

bloomingeek 3y ago
Sadly, I agree. The "always saved" and "faith without fear" motto's give most the idea that humility doesn't matter anymore. Pastor's fill them up with their being special and elect, which is in the heavenly realm, not here on earth. The concept of servant-believers, for most, isn't even on their radar. 2015 was a sort of tipping point, IMO, that has caused a sort of paradigm shift in Christianity. (sorry, a little vague, but I'm still trying to understand all the changes.) My hope is that all Christianity will go back to basic tenets of faith, biblically taught.
- chrismorgan 3y ago
  > biblically taught And there’s the key. If only people would read the Bible. If they would read even just Philippians 3:12 or Hebrews 10:26 or any of a number of other passages, they would see at once what heresy “once saved, always saved” is. But no, Christianity is too often just a club. Most people have no actual interest in the Bible. God has ever worked with minorities and remnants. Christianity strongly Bible-based will always be small by comparison. I rather like the way Dickens framed it in A Christmas Carol: > “There are some upon this earth of yours,” returned the Spirit, “who lay claim to know us, and who do their deeds of passion, pride, ill will, hatred, envy, bigotry, and selfishness in our name, who are as strange to us, and all our kith and kin, as if they had never lived. Remember that, and charge their doings on themselves, not us.”
  - fellowniusmonk 3y ago
    People we're talking about sending missionaries into the church in the late 90s for this reason, people railed against this rise of the influence of para-church organizations and multi-denominational initiatives. But the people who wanted to keep the definition of the american church a "small c" lost pretty thoroughly to the political action clubs. The SBC boycotts/cancelation of Disney in 1997 and the memetic cancelation of General Mills cereal was all outworkings from Jerry Falwells take over of american christian expression using Francis Schaeffers films to provide emotional impact and introduce new political reasoning and adopt what was previously "the roman catholic" issue of abortion as a primary political, religious and social wedge issue. That was the core "ratchet" issue. With Lamar Alexander, Alan Keyes and a few others politicians campaigning with extremely heavy religious strategies in republican primaries in 96 you see a turning point and culmination of the political work of Falwell and others through the 80s. It showed that there was effectively no pushback left among evangelicals to messaging that conflated Republican & Christian, the assimilation was sufficiently complete. Idk, there's almost an infinite amount of causes and drivers but there were a lot of bad turning points along the way. In what feels like a past life I actually went to a influential seminary in the early 00s, the few older professors we're academic and rigorous, the rest of the younger professors and the students themselves we're... bad, just really awful people with odd pathological relationships and furtive self serving behaviors, the amount of extremely insular "christian celebrity" worship was shocking to me at that age.
- achileas 3y ago
  Your viewpoint is very American and very Protestant. A lot of these things you call changes I saw as a regular feature in the evangelical south in the early 00s. Going to “basic tenets” and doubling down on sola scriptura is just fundamentalism and is why evangelicals and the like are the way that they are. And they’re (relatively) modern inventions!
- kevingadd 3y ago
  I call it moral rot specifically because I don't think it's a problem you can solve purely through biblical teaching or faith doctrine alone - you need to confront the mindset and the behavior, because ultimately a person's relationship with the god of their choice is a personal thing and not something we can exert control over. No matter how robust your biblical teaching is a person can still decide "it's between me and God, though" and choose to live in a morally flawed way because the bible gives them enough latitude to interpret it in a supportive way, as many people do. And in this context I think confronting the mindset is a valuable thing to do even if you are speaking with an atheist. Essentially, questions like: * If everyone adopted your mindset, what kind of world would we live in? * Do you think your friends and family would be proud of you if they knew you were acting this way? * Would you feel good if you knew all your friends and family were acting like you? * Are you acting in a way you might regret later in life?
tourmalinetaco 3y ago
Given my experiences with Catholics, I have a hard time believing it isn’t just as common across Christianity as a whole, at least in the US. And in that sense I would sooner say it is a failing of teaching and faith in The Lord, that atheist (and thus hedonistic) thoughts are more pervasive and people believe they can “trick the system” in the future.

manicennui 3y ago

The problem is a world view based on appeals to authority and nothing claimed about said authority can be proven or disproven.

AniseAbyss 3y ago

[dead]