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+1, my layman’s understanding of this was: Assume you write a bachelor thesis on topic X. Then, move universities (or professors, whatever), and write more or

+1, my layman’s understanding of this was: Assume you write a bachelor thesis on topic X. Then, move universities (or professors, whatever), and write more or less the same thesis again to get a masters degree. That’s self plagiarism.

matthewdgreen 3y ago
The problem with that is that it’s academic dishonesty. You’re turning in work for academic credit that you didn’t do. Transfer the self-plagiarism situation to another context, say you self-publish a book and re-use some material from another book you wrote. The fact of self-plagiarism may still exist but in this new context it’s not clear that the harm does (whereas copying another writer’s words is still clearly harmful.)
- mijoharas 3y ago
  > You’re turning in work for academic credit that you didn’t do This doesn't sound true if you're copying your own work surely? If that's the case it must by definition be work that you did, right?
  - matthewdgreen 3y ago
    If I turn in the same project for two different courses without flagging it, that's considered a violation of many academic (teaching) integrity codes. Similarly if you hire me to write a bespoke piece of software (with copyright assigned to you) and I re-use code I've delivered to other clients, that could be considered a damaging violation of our contract. You could refer to both of these cases as "self-plagiarism", but that's just a phrase: the actual harm caused by it is very specific to the context it occurs in. (And any punishments/opprobrium we assign to it should be similarly context-dependent.)
    - smeej 3y ago
      There's a difference between a school writing up its own set of conduct rules and plagiarism. Any two entities can agree to any set of terms they want. If a school says you have to sign a code of conduct to go there, and it prohibits submitting the same work for more than one course, fine. If someone breaks that rule, accuse them of violating the code of conduct. But that's not plagiarism. "Self-plagiarism" is a contradiction in terms.
      - matthewdgreen 3y ago
        I don't like the term either, and what I'm trying to say is that whereas "plagiarism" is always (to some extent) a bad thing - since we should not steal others' work without credit - "self-plagiarism" is only problematic in specific contexts. It would be better not to use such a loaded term. It's also important to understand that many of the lessons we are taught in school about attribution are deliberately over-emphasized by instructors, in order to impart good citation habits. If frightening students to death about "self-plagiarism" causes them to be unnecessarily forthright in citing their own work, even outside the classroom context, instructors are mostly fine with that.
  - shmeeed 3y ago
    Let's phrase it differently: how many times do you think one should be allowed to turn in the same piece of work for additional academic credit? The issue with self plagiarism isn't that you are quoting your own previous work (you are free to do that), it's because you're not tagging it as a citation and thereby passing it off as new.
    - smeej 3y ago
      > how many times do you think one should be allowed to turn in the same piece of work for additional academic credit? As many as it meets the requirements for. Heck, I submitted the exact same "tell us about a significant experience in your life" story to every single university I applied for. And I guarantee the teachers are duplicating lessons or parts of lessons when they teach related classes. Have you ever seen a professor cite, "Me, the first time I taught this class"? That's just being smart and efficient. I see absolutely nothing wrong with any of these examples.
      - shmeeed 3y ago
        The avoidance of self-plagiarism isn't some kind of honour code for all aspects of life - it only applies to the specific case of a paper to submit for academic credit. The examples you describe have nothing to do with that, of course. >As many as it meets the requirements for. What I'm trying to tell you is that it normally won't meet the requirements a second time. It's usually part of the university's examination regulations that a paper has to be original. Everything else is seen as an attempt of scientific deception that consequently can and will be treated as a violation of regulations. But I have to admit I'm not sure if that's a universal rule, or just where I'm from. I suspect we might be having some kind of cultural divide at play here. May I ask what part of the world you're in?
        smeej 3y ago
        Scientific deception? It was a philosophy paper (in my original post). There weren't any scientific claims. I just made a statement in one paper that I had previously made about the same topic in a different paper. If I had taken two classes that both requested an essay on the symbolism of Plato's cave, I'd be stoked I already had one at the ready. Wouldn't even occur to me that there was some problem with it. But even that isn't what happened in my original post that prompted the question. I'm in the U.S., and I was pursuing my degree at a university people have heard of in New England (but not the one that probably first comes to mind, especially about this topic lately).

matthewdgreen 3y ago

The problem with that is that it’s academic dishonesty. You’re turning in work for academic credit that you didn’t do. Transfer the self-plagiarism situation to another context, say you self-publish a book and re-use some material from another book you wrote. The fact of self-plagiarism may still exist but in this new context it’s not clear that the harm does (whereas copying another writer’s words is still clearly harmful.)

mijoharas 3y ago
> You’re turning in work for academic credit that you didn’t do This doesn't sound true if you're copying your own work surely? If that's the case it must by definition be work that you did, right?
- matthewdgreen 3y ago
  If I turn in the same project for two different courses without flagging it, that's considered a violation of many academic (teaching) integrity codes. Similarly if you hire me to write a bespoke piece of software (with copyright assigned to you) and I re-use code I've delivered to other clients, that could be considered a damaging violation of our contract. You could refer to both of these cases as "self-plagiarism", but that's just a phrase: the actual harm caused by it is very specific to the context it occurs in. (And any punishments/opprobrium we assign to it should be similarly context-dependent.)
  - smeej 3y ago
    There's a difference between a school writing up its own set of conduct rules and plagiarism. Any two entities can agree to any set of terms they want. If a school says you have to sign a code of conduct to go there, and it prohibits submitting the same work for more than one course, fine. If someone breaks that rule, accuse them of violating the code of conduct. But that's not plagiarism. "Self-plagiarism" is a contradiction in terms.
    - matthewdgreen 3y ago
      I don't like the term either, and what I'm trying to say is that whereas "plagiarism" is always (to some extent) a bad thing - since we should not steal others' work without credit - "self-plagiarism" is only problematic in specific contexts. It would be better not to use such a loaded term. It's also important to understand that many of the lessons we are taught in school about attribution are deliberately over-emphasized by instructors, in order to impart good citation habits. If frightening students to death about "self-plagiarism" causes them to be unnecessarily forthright in citing their own work, even outside the classroom context, instructors are mostly fine with that.
- shmeeed 3y ago
  Let's phrase it differently: how many times do you think one should be allowed to turn in the same piece of work for additional academic credit? The issue with self plagiarism isn't that you are quoting your own previous work (you are free to do that), it's because you're not tagging it as a citation and thereby passing it off as new.
  - smeej 3y ago
    > how many times do you think one should be allowed to turn in the same piece of work for additional academic credit? As many as it meets the requirements for. Heck, I submitted the exact same "tell us about a significant experience in your life" story to every single university I applied for. And I guarantee the teachers are duplicating lessons or parts of lessons when they teach related classes. Have you ever seen a professor cite, "Me, the first time I taught this class"? That's just being smart and efficient. I see absolutely nothing wrong with any of these examples.
    - shmeeed 3y ago
      The avoidance of self-plagiarism isn't some kind of honour code for all aspects of life - it only applies to the specific case of a paper to submit for academic credit. The examples you describe have nothing to do with that, of course. >As many as it meets the requirements for. What I'm trying to tell you is that it normally won't meet the requirements a second time. It's usually part of the university's examination regulations that a paper has to be original. Everything else is seen as an attempt of scientific deception that consequently can and will be treated as a violation of regulations. But I have to admit I'm not sure if that's a universal rule, or just where I'm from. I suspect we might be having some kind of cultural divide at play here. May I ask what part of the world you're in?
      - smeej 3y ago
        Scientific deception? It was a philosophy paper (in my original post). There weren't any scientific claims. I just made a statement in one paper that I had previously made about the same topic in a different paper. If I had taken two classes that both requested an essay on the symbolism of Plato's cave, I'd be stoked I already had one at the ready. Wouldn't even occur to me that there was some problem with it. But even that isn't what happened in my original post that prompted the question. I'm in the U.S., and I was pursuing my degree at a university people have heard of in New England (but not the one that probably first comes to mind, especially about this topic lately).