5 ms·

I didn't know televangelist were a thing until a year or two ago, and remember having my mind blown (in a "but why" way). How is that a thing. Why do so many p

I didn't know televangelist were a thing until a year or two ago, and remember having my mind blown (in a "but why" way). How is that a thing. Why do so many people fall for it? How do these people get discovered. The only reason I know about them is because of a meme YouTube video where a reporter drilled a televangelist on camera. Aside: may I propose we style the Internet variety as eVangelists?

Pirvax 3y ago
Counter proposal: how about iVangelist?
cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago
I’ve genuinely gotta ask: is not having heard of this an age thing, or a location thing?
- ionwake 3y ago
  Location. Like male circumcision it simply doesnt exist outside of the USA, unless you count random african countries like Ghana. No idea why, if anyone wants to enlighten me let me know.
  - trust_bt_verify 3y ago
    Kinda a naive statement. Around 1/3 of males in the world are circumcised with highest rates in the US, Middle East, and South Korea. https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/16194-circumcision https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/16194-circu...
    - Ographer 3y ago
      Just to be clear, because the intro to that article is not, it's much more rare for circumcision to be required for purely medical or hygiene reasons. Let's not prepare that excuse. This form of genial mutilation is most often performed on babies for no reason other than perpetuating religious or cultural expectations of the parents.
      - trust_bt_verify 3y ago
        I made no statement or determination on whether the practice was right or wrong or why it may be done. I only refuted the statement that it was only seen in the US and Africa. Your positions on the genitalia of American men sound very well thought out and I encourage you to pursue that further!
        ionwake 3y ago
        No, that is incorrect, linking to a study discussing the benefits of circumcision implies bias. If you had linked to both a positive and negative article, such as one regarding how it permanently destroys male sensitive at the head of penis both producing discomfort for female partners during initial penetration, aswell as permanent trauma in child in other studies, then you would have not made a biased statement with your link pasting.
        rblatz 3y ago
        You are obviously passionate about other people’s genitalia, but putting words in his mouth and accusing him of bias when it’s clear from context what he meant is a bad look.
        Ographer 3y ago
        The article did not present the criticisms enough. It's mostly about bodily autonomy. Imagine if 1/3 of the world gave their babies botex or other face modifications after birth because they thought their babies looked ugly and I was on here defending the baby's rights to not be unnecessarily modified without their consent. Then you come on here and joke about how passionate I must be about other people's faces. It's not about the faces or genitalia, it's about one's right to bodily autonomy.
    - ionwake 3y ago
      Although you are being a bit rude calling me naive, you are not wrong regarding your percentage, and I was wrong in my general attitude that few people do outside the USA, however I meant, most countries that practice circumcision other than the USA ( western / developed ). However you are right regarding all countries, and for this I thank you for opening my eyes. I am from Europe where it isn't a thing, this table should help explain the difference in opinion in the West. Top 5 Countries by Circumcision Rate High and Low United States 50-60% Indonesia >90% Pakistan >90% Bangladesh >90% Egypt >90% (European Countries with Lowest Circumcision Rates) Finland <1% Denmark <2% Norway <2% Sweden <3% Iceland <1% PS - it was unprofessional to add a link to a random article on reasons for circumcision, it makes you sound butthurt, no one asked or cares to discuss genital mutilation reasons. If you are interested in sharing your vague opinion and articles about it then Ill bite. Not anyone cares in this thread about my opinion on this matter (understandably) but I find it barbaric and have only pity for any man subjected to it as a child. TLDR We were just talking about how its unheard of in western democracies outside the US
      - trust_bt_verify 3y ago
        The article was the source for the top countries and overall percentage I used in my statement. It’s fine if you would like to make unsubstantiated claims but I felt it was better to provide a source for my claim. Is Ghana a western democracy or did you just toss them in for some extra bias/flair? Maybe you just had trouble staying on track with the thread which was about televangelists and didn’t mention male genitalia at all.
        ionwake 3y ago
        To be honest, I just mentioned it was uncommon due to location I had no idea someone was going to reply with links to articles about the benefits of male circumcision, I felt compelled to reply as a result. But it is a fair enough comment to say I should stay on track when I called you out on it too ( I edited that out as I felt it was a bit rude to comment on your attitude ). Regarding Ghana I dont think you understood my point, I don't believe Ghana is a Western Democracy, but I do believe it has a high right of circumcision, my point is simply that noone in the West circumcises, only the USA. I guessed Ghana was a poor country with comparatively poorer and lower levels of education and GDP with a high percentage rate of circumcision and it seems I was right - its over 95% PS - you are again being rude by suggestion I am trying to add flair to look cool. You clearly are having trouble understanding by basic point and instead guessing its because I am trying to sound cool. If you look at my account its over a decade old with barely any points on it, I dont care about upvotes.
    - datavirtue 3y ago
      Traditional: a word used to apply a veneer of legitimacy. Deligitamizing adjacent alternatives. Like referring to public school as "traditional education" in comparison with the implied "non-traditional" home schooling (which is the actual tradition).
  - zikduruqe 3y ago
    > if anyone wants to enlighten me let me know. Cut off the tip of your ding dong and get to eat bacon. Or not. Easy choice. /s
    - rideontime 3y ago
      Isn't it the opposite?
  - AlchemistCamp 3y ago
    It’s very common in South Korea as well as in Jewish and Muslim populations globally. Your comment reflects a very Europe-centric view of the world.
    - ionwake 3y ago
      That is because I live in Europe.
zer00eyz 3y ago
Im gonna nerd out here: America has a long history of "preachers", and "evangelists". I was in a thread yesterday that referenced Johnny Appleseed who was ministering and planting nurserys. There is "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinners_in_the_Hands_of_an_Angry_God https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinners_in_the_Hands_of_an_Ang... ) That continues to be looked at and dwelled upon. This carries through into modern times... Sam Kinison who was a famous and very distinct comedian gets a lot of his style from being a tent revival style preacher (You can watch is comedy that is very NSFW and his preaching its an interesting counter point). Mind you Sam is a contemporary of Jim Baker (a massive scandal that makes this one look small), and his wife Tammy Fay. And in the very present The show The Righteous Gemstones makes fun of the excess and money that preachers can generate.
- datavirtue 3y ago
  Baby Billy's Bible Bonkers!
magicalhippo 3y ago
The son of some family friends decided one day to suddenly give up his life and devote 100% of it to some guru in India. He was moderately religious christian, as most are here in Norway, and I'd spent a lot of time with him as we were of similar age and our families met regularly through our childhood. As such I knew him as quite bright and well informed. Suddenly he was devoting all his time to studying rites and rituals, almost cutting out contact with is family, and taking up extra jobs so he could send money to this guru. My dad met this guru once when he visited here in Norway. My dad said he spent way more time talking about the stock market than anything spiritual. Yet to this day, a couple of decades later, their son is still laboring hard for this guy. I did get to speak to him a few times after he had converted. For me this whole thing was utterly bewildering. Looking back at us growing up, I suppose what he was seeking was somewhere to belong. It wasn't about this or that religion specifically, that seemed almost incidental, looking in from the outside. His life had gotten a new meaning: follow these rites and rituals, and do whatever this guy says. In return he got a sense of belonging. Still really weird to me, and still very hard for his parents. But their son willingly and with open eyes embraced this. I've reflected on this several times, and my conclusion is that some people just want to believe, so they can belong.
- mistrial9 3y ago
  what you say may be true, but it is remarkably blind to the possibility that this teaching community has real meaning for the guy, in addition to the social effects.
- therealdrag0 3y ago
  I know a an Indian guy who made good money as an engineer in US. Then he quit and went back to India to study under a guru. Then he divorced his wife who he had a child with, and started dating one of the gurus other acolytes. Seemed tragic and potentially hypocritical to me—tho I don’t know enough about his religion to know if it values loyalty to family etc.
jl6 3y ago
A lot of people live in bubbles and local networks that don’t have regular access to the normal tools of skepticism that you and I might take for granted. If you’ve been brought up to believe what you’re told, these people can be very convincing. This is no longer an exclusively offline type of localism either. There is no shortage of online bubbles that are well insulated from outside perspectives. It’s not even a “poor, dumb people” thing. We are all subject to the network effect and must make continuous active effort to avoid sinking into a comfortable echo chamber. I know so many people who grew up combatting religious fundamentalism, dispatching creationist arguments with expert logical fallacy-fu, only to later fall into their own malign belief systems, losing the ability to question. Even academia, where the foundation stones of skepticism and innovative thinking were laid, has bubbles of very smart people whose working environment is being drained of heterodoxy.
everdrive 3y ago
There's probably a better way to explain this, but I think it's just an emotional hook. A lot of things seem crazy when you don't get to experience the emotional aspect of the experience. You can sort of test this out by describing things which are commonly enjoyed, but in cold, cynical terms. For instance, why do people like going to concerts? It's $100 or more to be surrounded by a hostile crowd, probably catch COVID, certainly induce some hearing damage, have zero peace and quiet for hours, etc. None of these "costs" really stack of up course if you find going to concerts rewarding in an emotional sense. If the concert itself never moved you emotionally, it'd be very difficult to see why people would put up with all the additional externalities of the whole event. This isn't a perfect comparison, but I hope you can see what I'm getting at.

Pirvax 3y ago

Counter proposal: how about iVangelist?

cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago

I’ve genuinely gotta ask: is not having heard of this an age thing, or a location thing?

ionwake 3y ago
Location. Like male circumcision it simply doesnt exist outside of the USA, unless you count random african countries like Ghana. No idea why, if anyone wants to enlighten me let me know.
- trust_bt_verify 3y ago
  Kinda a naive statement. Around 1/3 of males in the world are circumcised with highest rates in the US, Middle East, and South Korea. https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/16194-circumcision https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/16194-circu...
  - Ographer 3y ago
    Just to be clear, because the intro to that article is not, it's much more rare for circumcision to be required for purely medical or hygiene reasons. Let's not prepare that excuse. This form of genial mutilation is most often performed on babies for no reason other than perpetuating religious or cultural expectations of the parents.
    - trust_bt_verify 3y ago
      I made no statement or determination on whether the practice was right or wrong or why it may be done. I only refuted the statement that it was only seen in the US and Africa. Your positions on the genitalia of American men sound very well thought out and I encourage you to pursue that further!
      - ionwake 3y ago
        No, that is incorrect, linking to a study discussing the benefits of circumcision implies bias. If you had linked to both a positive and negative article, such as one regarding how it permanently destroys male sensitive at the head of penis both producing discomfort for female partners during initial penetration, aswell as permanent trauma in child in other studies, then you would have not made a biased statement with your link pasting.
        rblatz 3y ago
        You are obviously passionate about other people’s genitalia, but putting words in his mouth and accusing him of bias when it’s clear from context what he meant is a bad look.
        Ographer 3y ago
        The article did not present the criticisms enough. It's mostly about bodily autonomy. Imagine if 1/3 of the world gave their babies botex or other face modifications after birth because they thought their babies looked ugly and I was on here defending the baby's rights to not be unnecessarily modified without their consent. Then you come on here and joke about how passionate I must be about other people's faces. It's not about the faces or genitalia, it's about one's right to bodily autonomy.
  - ionwake 3y ago
    Although you are being a bit rude calling me naive, you are not wrong regarding your percentage, and I was wrong in my general attitude that few people do outside the USA, however I meant, most countries that practice circumcision other than the USA ( western / developed ). However you are right regarding all countries, and for this I thank you for opening my eyes. I am from Europe where it isn't a thing, this table should help explain the difference in opinion in the West. Top 5 Countries by Circumcision Rate High and Low United States 50-60% Indonesia >90% Pakistan >90% Bangladesh >90% Egypt >90% (European Countries with Lowest Circumcision Rates) Finland <1% Denmark <2% Norway <2% Sweden <3% Iceland <1% PS - it was unprofessional to add a link to a random article on reasons for circumcision, it makes you sound butthurt, no one asked or cares to discuss genital mutilation reasons. If you are interested in sharing your vague opinion and articles about it then Ill bite. Not anyone cares in this thread about my opinion on this matter (understandably) but I find it barbaric and have only pity for any man subjected to it as a child. TLDR We were just talking about how its unheard of in western democracies outside the US
    - trust_bt_verify 3y ago
      The article was the source for the top countries and overall percentage I used in my statement. It’s fine if you would like to make unsubstantiated claims but I felt it was better to provide a source for my claim. Is Ghana a western democracy or did you just toss them in for some extra bias/flair? Maybe you just had trouble staying on track with the thread which was about televangelists and didn’t mention male genitalia at all.
      - ionwake 3y ago
        To be honest, I just mentioned it was uncommon due to location I had no idea someone was going to reply with links to articles about the benefits of male circumcision, I felt compelled to reply as a result. But it is a fair enough comment to say I should stay on track when I called you out on it too ( I edited that out as I felt it was a bit rude to comment on your attitude ). Regarding Ghana I dont think you understood my point, I don't believe Ghana is a Western Democracy, but I do believe it has a high right of circumcision, my point is simply that noone in the West circumcises, only the USA. I guessed Ghana was a poor country with comparatively poorer and lower levels of education and GDP with a high percentage rate of circumcision and it seems I was right - its over 95% PS - you are again being rude by suggestion I am trying to add flair to look cool. You clearly are having trouble understanding by basic point and instead guessing its because I am trying to sound cool. If you look at my account its over a decade old with barely any points on it, I dont care about upvotes.
  - datavirtue 3y ago
    Traditional: a word used to apply a veneer of legitimacy. Deligitamizing adjacent alternatives. Like referring to public school as "traditional education" in comparison with the implied "non-traditional" home schooling (which is the actual tradition).
- zikduruqe 3y ago
  > if anyone wants to enlighten me let me know. Cut off the tip of your ding dong and get to eat bacon. Or not. Easy choice. /s
  - rideontime 3y ago
    Isn't it the opposite?
- AlchemistCamp 3y ago
  It’s very common in South Korea as well as in Jewish and Muslim populations globally. Your comment reflects a very Europe-centric view of the world.
  - ionwake 3y ago
    That is because I live in Europe.

zer00eyz 3y ago

Im gonna nerd out here: America has a long history of "preachers", and "evangelists". I was in a thread yesterday that referenced Johnny Appleseed who was ministering and planting nurserys. There is "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinners_in_the_Hands_of_an_Angry_God https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinners_in_the_Hands_of_an_Ang... ) That continues to be looked at and dwelled upon. This carries through into modern times... Sam Kinison who was a famous and very distinct comedian gets a lot of his style from being a tent revival style preacher (You can watch is comedy that is very NSFW and his preaching its an interesting counter point). Mind you Sam is a contemporary of Jim Baker (a massive scandal that makes this one look small), and his wife Tammy Fay. And in the very present The show The Righteous Gemstones makes fun of the excess and money that preachers can generate.

datavirtue 3y ago
Baby Billy's Bible Bonkers!

magicalhippo 3y ago

The son of some family friends decided one day to suddenly give up his life and devote 100% of it to some guru in India. He was moderately religious christian, as most are here in Norway, and I'd spent a lot of time with him as we were of similar age and our families met regularly through our childhood. As such I knew him as quite bright and well informed. Suddenly he was devoting all his time to studying rites and rituals, almost cutting out contact with is family, and taking up extra jobs so he could send money to this guru. My dad met this guru once when he visited here in Norway. My dad said he spent way more time talking about the stock market than anything spiritual. Yet to this day, a couple of decades later, their son is still laboring hard for this guy. I did get to speak to him a few times after he had converted. For me this whole thing was utterly bewildering. Looking back at us growing up, I suppose what he was seeking was somewhere to belong. It wasn't about this or that religion specifically, that seemed almost incidental, looking in from the outside. His life had gotten a new meaning: follow these rites and rituals, and do whatever this guy says. In return he got a sense of belonging. Still really weird to me, and still very hard for his parents. But their son willingly and with open eyes embraced this. I've reflected on this several times, and my conclusion is that some people just want to believe, so they can belong.

mistrial9 3y ago
what you say may be true, but it is remarkably blind to the possibility that this teaching community has real meaning for the guy, in addition to the social effects.
therealdrag0 3y ago
I know a an Indian guy who made good money as an engineer in US. Then he quit and went back to India to study under a guru. Then he divorced his wife who he had a child with, and started dating one of the gurus other acolytes. Seemed tragic and potentially hypocritical to me—tho I don’t know enough about his religion to know if it values loyalty to family etc.

jl6 3y ago

A lot of people live in bubbles and local networks that don’t have regular access to the normal tools of skepticism that you and I might take for granted. If you’ve been brought up to believe what you’re told, these people can be very convincing. This is no longer an exclusively offline type of localism either. There is no shortage of online bubbles that are well insulated from outside perspectives. It’s not even a “poor, dumb people” thing. We are all subject to the network effect and must make continuous active effort to avoid sinking into a comfortable echo chamber. I know so many people who grew up combatting religious fundamentalism, dispatching creationist arguments with expert logical fallacy-fu, only to later fall into their own malign belief systems, losing the ability to question. Even academia, where the foundation stones of skepticism and innovative thinking were laid, has bubbles of very smart people whose working environment is being drained of heterodoxy.

everdrive 3y ago

There's probably a better way to explain this, but I think it's just an emotional hook. A lot of things seem crazy when you don't get to experience the emotional aspect of the experience. You can sort of test this out by describing things which are commonly enjoyed, but in cold, cynical terms. For instance, why do people like going to concerts? It's $100 or more to be surrounded by a hostile crowd, probably catch COVID, certainly induce some hearing damage, have zero peace and quiet for hours, etc. None of these "costs" really stack of up course if you find going to concerts rewarding in an emotional sense. If the concert itself never moved you emotionally, it'd be very difficult to see why people would put up with all the additional externalities of the whole event. This isn't a perfect comparison, but I hope you can see what I'm getting at.