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> We are currently seeing a higher civilian death rate than we saw back in February 2022, yet it doesn't seem like a lot of people complained about disrupting i

by prmph 3y ago

> We are currently seeing a higher civilian death rate than we saw back in February 2022, yet it doesn't seem like a lot of people complained about disrupting international order when Russia was sanctioned. This is a false equivalence. Israel was attacked first, brutally. Russia was not attacked; theirs is a war of agression, pure and simple. It is clear that the fundamental cause of the Ukraine war is a desire by Putin and his ilk to restore the old soviet "empire". [1] Actually, that has been the cause of many wars down through the centuries. A former power, or a country that thinks it needs to play a more powerful role in world affairs, seeking (re)ascendancy. It happened with Germany and Japan in WW2, and it is happening with Russia now. But it seems people will believe anything but what the aggressors themselves clearly want. Do you know what the Muslim nations say among themselves, what their ultimate objective is? Without understanding that, it is impossible to place the Israeli-Arab conflict in proper perspective. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/25/putin-new-russian-empire-ukraine https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/25/putin-...

mardifoufs 3y ago
It doesn't matter. Attacking first or being attacked does not give you the right to level a complete city and does not give you the right to openly call for displacing a population. Israel is also actively pushing for colonization of Palestinian lands well before the war started, just like Russia was slowly trying to encroach on Ukrainian lands at first. Even beyond the whatboutism in your comment, sure yeah, let's talk about how trying to restore old entities and states is a bad thing. But isn't that the whole premise of Zionism? It's literally the reasoning behind the Israel state backed settlements in the west bank. Somehow I guess Israeli colonialism is just different... because reasons. And somehow, it's not an act of aggression. Sure! And before you say that Gaza didn't have any colonies, well they didn't exactly because they have been aggressive (and it doesn't matter, Palestinians view themselves as a nation so it happening in the west bank is just as important for people living in Gaza). The west bank stopped "being aggressive" and stopped the armed struggle and they have been rewarded with 2 decades of constant, blatant pushes for ever more settlements by literal lunatics and Israeli supremacists. All endorsed fully by the military and the Israeli state.
- aaomidi 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - mardifoufs 3y ago
    I completely got that. A few months ago I'd have said you are being dramatic, but the insane mental gymnastics that people do to justify and even cheering for Israel's actions while at the very same time have the reaction they had to Ukraine getting invaded back in 2022 leaves me with no other possible conclusion. And to be honest I don't even care, I get it and I don't expect westerners to care about us but what annoys me is truly that they actually believe that there is no hypocrisy or biais. So they just go on full on revisionism, colonialist apologia, they suddenly believe everything the military that is currently killing civilians says, and they use literal Russian tier arguments of "well they voted for Hamas 15 years ago!". Just because Israel is on our side, so what they do is justified, and Russia isn't Like, Israel openly claiming that their goal is to basically relocate and displace the local Gaza population is good actually, it's just self defense. And hey, we can't avoid civilian deaths and Israel has the right to self defense (defense is when you colonize another nation). It's insane, Israeli officials are super open about their objectives but it seems like Israel supporters know better than them.
    - prmph 3y ago
      No, you got it wrong. I would say that the current outcry about Gaza is mostly driven by a false sense of siding with the underdog. But just because some people appear to be the underdog doesn't mean they are right. And just so you know, I'm not white. Not even probably brown, ethnically. I'm classified as black African, and, and from where I sit, the Middle Eastern nations are not in any position to point fingers at a supposed disregard of brown lives, when one considers how they treat migrants, a lot from Africa. Arab "slavery" of Africans is still a thing Settler violence is certainly wrong. However Israel also left Gaza years ago and have been rewarded with constant rocket attacks, and more. > Like, Israel openly claiming that their goal is to basically relocate and displace the local Gaza population is good actually Fine, tell me what the solution is then. If your response is that Israel ceases to exist, then I guess there is no longer a basis for discussion - good luck - I have no bone in this. But if not, then how is the security of Israel to be ensured? The vast amount of funds that flowed into Gaza has only been used to attack Israel, and Gazans are now much worse off. How is this a wise course of action?

by prmph 3y ago

mardifoufs 3y ago

It doesn't matter. Attacking first or being attacked does not give you the right to level a complete city and does not give you the right to openly call for displacing a population. Israel is also actively pushing for colonization of Palestinian lands well before the war started, just like Russia was slowly trying to encroach on Ukrainian lands at first. Even beyond the whatboutism in your comment, sure yeah, let's talk about how trying to restore old entities and states is a bad thing. But isn't that the whole premise of Zionism? It's literally the reasoning behind the Israel state backed settlements in the west bank. Somehow I guess Israeli colonialism is just different... because reasons. And somehow, it's not an act of aggression. Sure! And before you say that Gaza didn't have any colonies, well they didn't exactly because they have been aggressive (and it doesn't matter, Palestinians view themselves as a nation so it happening in the west bank is just as important for people living in Gaza). The west bank stopped "being aggressive" and stopped the armed struggle and they have been rewarded with 2 decades of constant, blatant pushes for ever more settlements by literal lunatics and Israeli supremacists. All endorsed fully by the military and the Israeli state.

aaomidi 3y ago
[flagged]
- mardifoufs 3y ago
  I completely got that. A few months ago I'd have said you are being dramatic, but the insane mental gymnastics that people do to justify and even cheering for Israel's actions while at the very same time have the reaction they had to Ukraine getting invaded back in 2022 leaves me with no other possible conclusion. And to be honest I don't even care, I get it and I don't expect westerners to care about us but what annoys me is truly that they actually believe that there is no hypocrisy or biais. So they just go on full on revisionism, colonialist apologia, they suddenly believe everything the military that is currently killing civilians says, and they use literal Russian tier arguments of "well they voted for Hamas 15 years ago!". Just because Israel is on our side, so what they do is justified, and Russia isn't Like, Israel openly claiming that their goal is to basically relocate and displace the local Gaza population is good actually, it's just self defense. And hey, we can't avoid civilian deaths and Israel has the right to self defense (defense is when you colonize another nation). It's insane, Israeli officials are super open about their objectives but it seems like Israel supporters know better than them.
  - prmph 3y ago
    No, you got it wrong. I would say that the current outcry about Gaza is mostly driven by a false sense of siding with the underdog. But just because some people appear to be the underdog doesn't mean they are right. And just so you know, I'm not white. Not even probably brown, ethnically. I'm classified as black African, and, and from where I sit, the Middle Eastern nations are not in any position to point fingers at a supposed disregard of brown lives, when one considers how they treat migrants, a lot from Africa. Arab "slavery" of Africans is still a thing Settler violence is certainly wrong. However Israel also left Gaza years ago and have been rewarded with constant rocket attacks, and more. > Like, Israel openly claiming that their goal is to basically relocate and displace the local Gaza population is good actually Fine, tell me what the solution is then. If your response is that Israel ceases to exist, then I guess there is no longer a basis for discussion - good luck - I have no bone in this. But if not, then how is the security of Israel to be ensured? The vast amount of funds that flowed into Gaza has only been used to attack Israel, and Gazans are now much worse off. How is this a wise course of action?