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These are not slaves. They are free to leave. Nobody is forcing them to work at this job for so little pay. There are plenty of other jobs that pay better. They

by imgabe 3y ago

These are not slaves. They are free to leave. Nobody is forcing them to work at this job for so little pay. There are plenty of other jobs that pay better. They should go get one of those if they want more money. If enough of them did, the supply of animators would fall and pay would increase.

Brian_K_White 3y ago
It doesn't matter if "they are free to leave". There is still no excuse for the employer to pay less than a livable amount for whatever work they get. If it's 500 freelancers competing for the equivalent of 2 1-day jobs, the employer still has to pay something reasonable for a days work to 2 of them, and nothing to the rest. Or the granularity can be smaller like per hour, but the per hour rate is still some minimum that actually works. It doesn't matter what the powerless individual worker is ostensibly "free" to do.
- imgabe 3y ago
  People can offer to pay whatever they want. Other people can choose to accept it or not. The point where what people offer and what people are willing to accept intersect determines the price. If you don’t like the amount being offered, then don’t accept it. This is not very complicated. Animators are not powerless. It’s not like they are coal miners in a company town and this is the only job available for miles around. Nobody has to be an animator. Honestly, if a friend came to you and said “my job sucks! They work us to the bone and pay us nothing!” Would you give them a speech about how their employer is evil and they are powerless or would you help them find another job?
  - Arainach 3y ago
    There is an enormous power imbalance even in the absence of collusion between employers (which is common). It is difficult and expensive to find jobs, to change jobs, and to move. Many people literally cannot afford to move to a different city for a job. Many employees can't even get a day off to go to a medical appointment, much less apply to a different job. Companies can wait, get loans, and compare offers for dozens or hundreds of candidates. Those candidates need to pay their bills today. It's particularly egregious in the US where healthcare is tied to employment, meaning that for many people a gap in unemployment would bankrupt them trying to pay for medication or care without insurance. The ACA was insufficient - policies through it are still incredibly expensive with high deductibles, and the lack of a public option for those ineligible for Medicare (or whose state governments declined medicare coverage for them) leaves them beholden to their employer.
    - imgabe 3y ago
      Mandating a wage where it is unprofitable to employ people so the business folds or lays them off does not seem like it would help anyone in that situation. I'm sure there are people who, at times, are in difficult situations. But those are usually not permanent. Are you telling me that someone gets one shitty job once and that is it? They permanently have that one job for the rest of their life? Empirically, that is not what happens. People do change jobs one way or another. Yes, healthcare in the US could be better, but the article was about animators in Japan, so that is not really relevant. These aren't retail workers with no marketable skills or training. They're talented and well-trained to even be able to get the job in the first place. They just happen to want to work in one very over-saturated, highly competitive industry. Not just animation in general but specifically, anime. Anyone who could get a job there could probably get any graphic design or other job requiring art talent, they're just choosing not to because they want to do this one thing, and in the process driving down the price of labor.
      - Arainach 3y ago
        If it's "unprofitable to hire people", raise your prices. If people aren't willing to pay those prices, your business model is a failure and your company is not a benefit to society. It is detrimental to society to allow capital owners to pocket all the profits and drive the cost of labor down.

by imgabe 3y ago

Brian_K_White 3y ago

It doesn't matter if "they are free to leave". There is still no excuse for the employer to pay less than a livable amount for whatever work they get. If it's 500 freelancers competing for the equivalent of 2 1-day jobs, the employer still has to pay something reasonable for a days work to 2 of them, and nothing to the rest. Or the granularity can be smaller like per hour, but the per hour rate is still some minimum that actually works. It doesn't matter what the powerless individual worker is ostensibly "free" to do.

imgabe 3y ago
People can offer to pay whatever they want. Other people can choose to accept it or not. The point where what people offer and what people are willing to accept intersect determines the price. If you don’t like the amount being offered, then don’t accept it. This is not very complicated. Animators are not powerless. It’s not like they are coal miners in a company town and this is the only job available for miles around. Nobody has to be an animator. Honestly, if a friend came to you and said “my job sucks! They work us to the bone and pay us nothing!” Would you give them a speech about how their employer is evil and they are powerless or would you help them find another job?
- Arainach 3y ago
  There is an enormous power imbalance even in the absence of collusion between employers (which is common). It is difficult and expensive to find jobs, to change jobs, and to move. Many people literally cannot afford to move to a different city for a job. Many employees can't even get a day off to go to a medical appointment, much less apply to a different job. Companies can wait, get loans, and compare offers for dozens or hundreds of candidates. Those candidates need to pay their bills today. It's particularly egregious in the US where healthcare is tied to employment, meaning that for many people a gap in unemployment would bankrupt them trying to pay for medication or care without insurance. The ACA was insufficient - policies through it are still incredibly expensive with high deductibles, and the lack of a public option for those ineligible for Medicare (or whose state governments declined medicare coverage for them) leaves them beholden to their employer.
  - imgabe 3y ago
    Mandating a wage where it is unprofitable to employ people so the business folds or lays them off does not seem like it would help anyone in that situation. I'm sure there are people who, at times, are in difficult situations. But those are usually not permanent. Are you telling me that someone gets one shitty job once and that is it? They permanently have that one job for the rest of their life? Empirically, that is not what happens. People do change jobs one way or another. Yes, healthcare in the US could be better, but the article was about animators in Japan, so that is not really relevant. These aren't retail workers with no marketable skills or training. They're talented and well-trained to even be able to get the job in the first place. They just happen to want to work in one very over-saturated, highly competitive industry. Not just animation in general but specifically, anime. Anyone who could get a job there could probably get any graphic design or other job requiring art talent, they're just choosing not to because they want to do this one thing, and in the process driving down the price of labor.
    - Arainach 3y ago
      If it's "unprofitable to hire people", raise your prices. If people aren't willing to pay those prices, your business model is a failure and your company is not a benefit to society. It is detrimental to society to allow capital owners to pocket all the profits and drive the cost of labor down.