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There is no job that is ok to pay nothing or as good as nothing. It doesn't matter what "career". If a job needs doing by a human at all, then that human does

There is no job that is ok to pay nothing or as good as nothing. It doesn't matter what "career". If a job needs doing by a human at all, then that human does indeed deserve a reasonable baseline which allows them to exist and even do so with reasonable dignity. As time goes on and jobs are done by machines, and there are fewer and fewer jobs that require a human, then the output and ownership of those machines simply should one way or another be distributed enough to have the same effect. All they have to do to earn that is not be being a criminal right at that moment. And this extends to people who can't do anything obviously productive too. Even a sick old grandma doing nothing but telling stories to kids for one hour a week is productive, and we have no excuse not to provide for even the ones who can't even do that. Because even if "the Earth is a life boat", we don't exist in an environment of hardship with fixed and insufficient resources where there just isn't enough food and building material and energy to go around. There simply is no excuse for the way we treat some people. They didn't do anything wrong enough to deserve it, and it is not forced by physical limits. Talking about what value someone provides to earn their existence is just a way to rationalize taking advantage of others. None of this equates to "I will be forced to spend 20 years learning medicine to give my time away for free to bums!" But even if it did, why is that a bad thing exactly? Because it's what, like slavery? You mean, slavery is bad after all?

imgabe 3y ago
These are not slaves. They are free to leave. Nobody is forcing them to work at this job for so little pay. There are plenty of other jobs that pay better. They should go get one of those if they want more money. If enough of them did, the supply of animators would fall and pay would increase.
- Brian_K_White 3y ago
  It doesn't matter if "they are free to leave". There is still no excuse for the employer to pay less than a livable amount for whatever work they get. If it's 500 freelancers competing for the equivalent of 2 1-day jobs, the employer still has to pay something reasonable for a days work to 2 of them, and nothing to the rest. Or the granularity can be smaller like per hour, but the per hour rate is still some minimum that actually works. It doesn't matter what the powerless individual worker is ostensibly "free" to do.
  - imgabe 3y ago
    People can offer to pay whatever they want. Other people can choose to accept it or not. The point where what people offer and what people are willing to accept intersect determines the price. If you don’t like the amount being offered, then don’t accept it. This is not very complicated. Animators are not powerless. It’s not like they are coal miners in a company town and this is the only job available for miles around. Nobody has to be an animator. Honestly, if a friend came to you and said “my job sucks! They work us to the bone and pay us nothing!” Would you give them a speech about how their employer is evil and they are powerless or would you help them find another job?
    - Arainach 3y ago
      There is an enormous power imbalance even in the absence of collusion between employers (which is common). It is difficult and expensive to find jobs, to change jobs, and to move. Many people literally cannot afford to move to a different city for a job. Many employees can't even get a day off to go to a medical appointment, much less apply to a different job. Companies can wait, get loans, and compare offers for dozens or hundreds of candidates. Those candidates need to pay their bills today. It's particularly egregious in the US where healthcare is tied to employment, meaning that for many people a gap in unemployment would bankrupt them trying to pay for medication or care without insurance. The ACA was insufficient - policies through it are still incredibly expensive with high deductibles, and the lack of a public option for those ineligible for Medicare (or whose state governments declined medicare coverage for them) leaves them beholden to their employer.
      - imgabe 3y ago
        Mandating a wage where it is unprofitable to employ people so the business folds or lays them off does not seem like it would help anyone in that situation. I'm sure there are people who, at times, are in difficult situations. But those are usually not permanent. Are you telling me that someone gets one shitty job once and that is it? They permanently have that one job for the rest of their life? Empirically, that is not what happens. People do change jobs one way or another. Yes, healthcare in the US could be better, but the article was about animators in Japan, so that is not really relevant. These aren't retail workers with no marketable skills or training. They're talented and well-trained to even be able to get the job in the first place. They just happen to want to work in one very over-saturated, highly competitive industry. Not just animation in general but specifically, anime. Anyone who could get a job there could probably get any graphic design or other job requiring art talent, they're just choosing not to because they want to do this one thing, and in the process driving down the price of labor.

imgabe 3y ago

These are not slaves. They are free to leave. Nobody is forcing them to work at this job for so little pay. There are plenty of other jobs that pay better. They should go get one of those if they want more money. If enough of them did, the supply of animators would fall and pay would increase.

Brian_K_White 3y ago
It doesn't matter if "they are free to leave". There is still no excuse for the employer to pay less than a livable amount for whatever work they get. If it's 500 freelancers competing for the equivalent of 2 1-day jobs, the employer still has to pay something reasonable for a days work to 2 of them, and nothing to the rest. Or the granularity can be smaller like per hour, but the per hour rate is still some minimum that actually works. It doesn't matter what the powerless individual worker is ostensibly "free" to do.
- imgabe 3y ago
  People can offer to pay whatever they want. Other people can choose to accept it or not. The point where what people offer and what people are willing to accept intersect determines the price. If you don’t like the amount being offered, then don’t accept it. This is not very complicated. Animators are not powerless. It’s not like they are coal miners in a company town and this is the only job available for miles around. Nobody has to be an animator. Honestly, if a friend came to you and said “my job sucks! They work us to the bone and pay us nothing!” Would you give them a speech about how their employer is evil and they are powerless or would you help them find another job?
  - Arainach 3y ago
    There is an enormous power imbalance even in the absence of collusion between employers (which is common). It is difficult and expensive to find jobs, to change jobs, and to move. Many people literally cannot afford to move to a different city for a job. Many employees can't even get a day off to go to a medical appointment, much less apply to a different job. Companies can wait, get loans, and compare offers for dozens or hundreds of candidates. Those candidates need to pay their bills today. It's particularly egregious in the US where healthcare is tied to employment, meaning that for many people a gap in unemployment would bankrupt them trying to pay for medication or care without insurance. The ACA was insufficient - policies through it are still incredibly expensive with high deductibles, and the lack of a public option for those ineligible for Medicare (or whose state governments declined medicare coverage for them) leaves them beholden to their employer.
    - imgabe 3y ago
      Mandating a wage where it is unprofitable to employ people so the business folds or lays them off does not seem like it would help anyone in that situation. I'm sure there are people who, at times, are in difficult situations. But those are usually not permanent. Are you telling me that someone gets one shitty job once and that is it? They permanently have that one job for the rest of their life? Empirically, that is not what happens. People do change jobs one way or another. Yes, healthcare in the US could be better, but the article was about animators in Japan, so that is not really relevant. These aren't retail workers with no marketable skills or training. They're talented and well-trained to even be able to get the job in the first place. They just happen to want to work in one very over-saturated, highly competitive industry. Not just animation in general but specifically, anime. Anyone who could get a job there could probably get any graphic design or other job requiring art talent, they're just choosing not to because they want to do this one thing, and in the process driving down the price of labor.