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> How many airplanes crashed due to The pilot being on drugs? As long as testing is uncommon you could say that number will remain at zero or near zero simply

by awongh 3y ago

> How many airplanes crashed due to The pilot being on drugs? As long as testing is uncommon you could say that number will remain at zero or near zero simply for lack of data. You comment implies but doesn’t state explicitly that you think truck drivers are more likely than pilots to be on drugs, is that true though?

vasco 3y ago
Based on likely social setting difference due to salary difference plus the fact that truck drivers go through seedy places and do many long stretches alone, compared to pilots frequenting airports and hotels, and always working with a crew, I'm sure truck drivers use more drugs than airplane pilots. If you are not sure of this, I think your mind is "too open".
- jonathankoren 3y ago
  This comment betrays the old and persistent idea that lower status people are inherently shifty and lazy, while higher status people are inherently more virtuous. Let’s say for argument’s sake that truck drivers proportionally engage in more risky behavior. This can be either the use of stimulants or simply driving tired. Why is that? Drivers’ — like many low status workers — jobs security is more precarious and are monitored more. Therefore, they’re more likely to engage in risky behavior in a desire to simply not be fired. Now let’s get back to pilots. Is it just that airline pilots are a high status job like ceo? Not entirely. Pilots are essentially no different than truck drivers in the sky. Ironically, it’s because planes themselves are tracked by a competent and vigorous government agency, that employers can’t put the same pressures on pilots that they can on truck drivers.
  - tengbretson 3y ago
    > They don't but if they do its justified.
  - d0gsg0w00f 3y ago
    This comment betrays the old and persistent idea that lower status people are inherently shifty and lazy, while higher status people are inherently more virtuous. I think this is because people are applying survivorship bias. It's really difficult to make it to those status levels while abusing drugs and alcohol. And even if you party hard at the top you must be able to "handle your shit". Success at the top is a careful dance of social nuance. If you fly to an on-site, get drunk in the hotel bar, and are late to the meeting or smell like booze, you're social status will be impacted unless you're a wizard with social excuses or make up for it in some other way. So--in a way--the success is the greatest drug test.
    - jonathankoren 3y ago
      It’s not just that. It has puritan religous undertones. Work is virtuous, and god rewards those that have his favor. Therefore those that have less, are obviously outside of god’s favor. Why are they not rewarded? Because they aren’t virtuous, and since work is virtue, they must be shifty and lazy. This is very deep seated idea in American culture. It manifests all sorts of ways. Deference to the rich, because clearly every rich person got and stayed rich through hard work and skill, instead of luck and family connections. Harsher penalities for poor people crimes, rather than rich people crimes. Constant monitoring for low wage workers, but no monitoring of high wage ones. Egregious hoops and monitoring for welfare, versus tax credits. Hell, even modern evangelical grifters leverage this idea with their prosperity gospel lies.
      - d0gsg0w00f 3y ago
        How rich are we talking? I'm just talking about your average schmuck pulling in $120k in a white collar job. Very unlikely that these types are leveraging family connections. It just takes a four year degree, washing your car, and being able to host some coworkers for lunch. Disclaimer: I believe it's society's duty to shame the shifless and lazy. And most of the behaviors that are taught by religions are rooted in anecdotal evidence over hundreds of years. Harder workers usually succeed more than the lazy. It's a lot more effective to say "hard work = heaven". And it's not even really about "success". Giving a damn about what you do in this life is key to a life of happiness and therefore a life aimed at a target and governed by rules about how to interact with your fellow man. "Giving a damn" is the most important foundation for financial success as well.
  - qwytw 3y ago
    > idea that lower status people are inherently shifty and lazy, while higher status people are inherently more virtuous It's not about that. But also statistically on average that idea is accurate in this case at least. The qualifications and self-discipline required to become a pilot are significantly higher than for a driver. Your also surrounded by many other people all the time so it's much harder to not get noticed. Also AFAIK random testing for alcohol is certainly a thing for pilots. > that employers can’t put the same pressures on pilots One might argue that they would more or less end up doing the same on their own. The cost/risk ratio is extremely different compared to truck drivers. Also costs of having extra pilots/allowing them to work less are not that significant relative to road transportation.
    - jonathankoren 3y ago
      >It's not about that. But also statistically on average that idea is accurate in this case at least. lol. No. Not at all. There is nothing to support this widely held idea. This is the very bias I was talking about.
      - qwytw 3y ago
        > There is nothing to support this widely held idea. This is the very bias I was talking about. You mean you don't think that there is a difference between commercial pilots and truck etc. drivers when it comes to drug and alcohol use? > lol. No. Not at all. That does sound very convincing.
- gumby 3y ago
  I think a better way to put it is that commercial aircraft personnel are under strict legal time limits while the legal time limits on truckers are not enforced particularly strongly and the trucking companies provide incentives not to follow those rules. So truck drivers are incented to take stimulants to a degree pilots are not. “To a degree” means some pilots will still stay up late and try to use stimulants to stay awake. But the pressure on the two cohorts is not equivalent.

by awongh 3y ago

vasco 3y ago

Based on likely social setting difference due to salary difference plus the fact that truck drivers go through seedy places and do many long stretches alone, compared to pilots frequenting airports and hotels, and always working with a crew, I'm sure truck drivers use more drugs than airplane pilots. If you are not sure of this, I think your mind is "too open".

jonathankoren 3y ago
This comment betrays the old and persistent idea that lower status people are inherently shifty and lazy, while higher status people are inherently more virtuous. Let’s say for argument’s sake that truck drivers proportionally engage in more risky behavior. This can be either the use of stimulants or simply driving tired. Why is that? Drivers’ — like many low status workers — jobs security is more precarious and are monitored more. Therefore, they’re more likely to engage in risky behavior in a desire to simply not be fired. Now let’s get back to pilots. Is it just that airline pilots are a high status job like ceo? Not entirely. Pilots are essentially no different than truck drivers in the sky. Ironically, it’s because planes themselves are tracked by a competent and vigorous government agency, that employers can’t put the same pressures on pilots that they can on truck drivers.
- tengbretson 3y ago
  > They don't but if they do its justified.
- d0gsg0w00f 3y ago
  This comment betrays the old and persistent idea that lower status people are inherently shifty and lazy, while higher status people are inherently more virtuous. I think this is because people are applying survivorship bias. It's really difficult to make it to those status levels while abusing drugs and alcohol. And even if you party hard at the top you must be able to "handle your shit". Success at the top is a careful dance of social nuance. If you fly to an on-site, get drunk in the hotel bar, and are late to the meeting or smell like booze, you're social status will be impacted unless you're a wizard with social excuses or make up for it in some other way. So--in a way--the success is the greatest drug test.
  - jonathankoren 3y ago
    It’s not just that. It has puritan religous undertones. Work is virtuous, and god rewards those that have his favor. Therefore those that have less, are obviously outside of god’s favor. Why are they not rewarded? Because they aren’t virtuous, and since work is virtue, they must be shifty and lazy. This is very deep seated idea in American culture. It manifests all sorts of ways. Deference to the rich, because clearly every rich person got and stayed rich through hard work and skill, instead of luck and family connections. Harsher penalities for poor people crimes, rather than rich people crimes. Constant monitoring for low wage workers, but no monitoring of high wage ones. Egregious hoops and monitoring for welfare, versus tax credits. Hell, even modern evangelical grifters leverage this idea with their prosperity gospel lies.
    - d0gsg0w00f 3y ago
      How rich are we talking? I'm just talking about your average schmuck pulling in $120k in a white collar job. Very unlikely that these types are leveraging family connections. It just takes a four year degree, washing your car, and being able to host some coworkers for lunch. Disclaimer: I believe it's society's duty to shame the shifless and lazy. And most of the behaviors that are taught by religions are rooted in anecdotal evidence over hundreds of years. Harder workers usually succeed more than the lazy. It's a lot more effective to say "hard work = heaven". And it's not even really about "success". Giving a damn about what you do in this life is key to a life of happiness and therefore a life aimed at a target and governed by rules about how to interact with your fellow man. "Giving a damn" is the most important foundation for financial success as well.
- qwytw 3y ago
  > idea that lower status people are inherently shifty and lazy, while higher status people are inherently more virtuous It's not about that. But also statistically on average that idea is accurate in this case at least. The qualifications and self-discipline required to become a pilot are significantly higher than for a driver. Your also surrounded by many other people all the time so it's much harder to not get noticed. Also AFAIK random testing for alcohol is certainly a thing for pilots. > that employers can’t put the same pressures on pilots One might argue that they would more or less end up doing the same on their own. The cost/risk ratio is extremely different compared to truck drivers. Also costs of having extra pilots/allowing them to work less are not that significant relative to road transportation.
  - jonathankoren 3y ago
    >It's not about that. But also statistically on average that idea is accurate in this case at least. lol. No. Not at all. There is nothing to support this widely held idea. This is the very bias I was talking about.
    - qwytw 3y ago
      > There is nothing to support this widely held idea. This is the very bias I was talking about. You mean you don't think that there is a difference between commercial pilots and truck etc. drivers when it comes to drug and alcohol use? > lol. No. Not at all. That does sound very convincing.
gumby 3y ago
I think a better way to put it is that commercial aircraft personnel are under strict legal time limits while the legal time limits on truckers are not enforced particularly strongly and the trucking companies provide incentives not to follow those rules. So truck drivers are incented to take stimulants to a degree pilots are not. “To a degree” means some pilots will still stay up late and try to use stimulants to stay awake. But the pressure on the two cohorts is not equivalent.