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The OP was making an observation. But I'll bite. First, human beings are not bees or ants. Our nature vis-a-vis reproduction is quite different. Most human bei

The OP was making an observation. But I'll bite. First, human beings are not bees or ants. Our nature vis-a-vis reproduction is quite different. Most human beings do reproduce as that is our nature, or certainly most of us used to with the exception of periods of social collapse (think of Rome). We're in that sort of condition now, where we are having little or no children in the developed world. This does not bode well and at some point the decline of such a society will become irreversible. Of course, you are right that not everyone must reproduce, that there is no particular obligation for anyone to reproduce, and that those who do not can still contribute to the well-being of their families, the human species, and the common good. And indeed, if you are, say, a Catholic, you would say that while having children is the natural course and the normal path for most people, a small minority are called to sacrifice this natural end for the sake of a higher supernatural, spiritual end, e.g., the priesthood, by which one becomes a spiritual parent in place of a biological one. Certainly, we can be parental figures in non-biological ways as well. Even biological parents do that. But that's not that we're seeing behind the present demographic decline. Something like the priesthood is an exception, not the rule. Most who can have children of their own are not having them, or many of them, not because of some kind of exceptional higher calling, but rather for morally dubious reasons. Children are demanding. They require sacrifice. They demand the love known as charity. A consumerist is going to view a child not as a gift, but a burden. Furthermore, our society demonizes families, especially large families (perhaps in part stemming from Protestant attempts to restrict Catholic populations in the US). Having many children used to be seen as a blessing, a privilege. Today, we both think we're entitled to having children (IVF is a testament to that), and refuse to have them.

ARandomerDude 3y ago
> Furthermore, our society demonizes families, especially large families (perhaps in part stemming from Protestant attempts to restrict Catholic populations in the US) I think it has a lot more to do with feminism than any Protestant/Catholic divide. In the Protestant church I attend, having 6+ kids is pretty normal. Certainly many evangelicals don’t value large families but I think they’re getting that mindset from the culture, rather than sacred Scipture.
- zpeti 3y ago
  Some say feminism (and progressivism) is just an offshoot of protestantism, albeit a secular, puritan version.
vlovich123 3y ago
No humans aren’t bees or ants. We’re social animals and you can’t ignore society and culture as aspects of evolution. Regardless, you’ve taken this whole thing in a weird direction bringing up a demographic collapse that is a fringe theory at the moment. As for that hypothesis, there’s no actual indication that humanity is in any danger of a collapse just because the boomer generation is passing and our numbers return to normal. Humans can reproduce quite quick and have a long reproductive lifecycle - if it ever becomes a problem society will change to priority life more. As it is, life has gotten pretty difficult in terms of supporting kids and people having fewer is a symptom of that and not consumerism as you claim. And children are both a blessing and a burden. If they weren’t a burden then the statistics about teenager births and the outcome for the parents and babies wouldn’t be as bad as they are.
- zpeti 3y ago
  > demographic collapse that is a fringe theory at the moment Show me the actual numbers where this isn't a massive change in humanity in the future? This is not a fringe theory. The effects of the collapse we can theorise on, but the collapse will happen now. It's not a question or a theory.
  - InSteady 3y ago
    I mean, population decline is a thing, and most 'developed' nations, or whatever you want to call us, are experiencing it. Demographic collapse sounds like a a scary term bandied about by people with an agenda (or those who want to proclaim the sky is falling but bizarrely want to ignore climate change and ecological collapse). I'm just guessing, because I haven't encountered the term and I'm not finding much about it on google. Certainly nothing from scientific or authoritative sources. I guess one article from FT uses the term to describe China's population decline.
  - overtomanu 3y ago
    My theory is that, as of now population might be above a "equilibrium". Since it is above equilibrium, it causes increased economic competition to raise kids. So only few economically well off couple have kid's. After few generations, population comes back to some level where economic competition to raise kids is reduced. Also, most of the lineages of people who chose not to have kids would have been wiped out or atleast somewhat reduced (Natural selection at play). So the people living in the future are likely to have kids on the condition that there is no economic penalty. So humanity extinction due to demographic decline is less likely. Instead it might happen due to something like nuclear war. More details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox#It_is_the_nature_of_intelligent_life_to_destroy_itself https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox#It_is_the_nature...
safety1st 3y ago
I'm downvoting this because of the arrogant and dubious notion that people who've chosen not to have children are somehow morally flawed. The fact of the matter is that successfully raising, educating etc. a child is dramatically more expensive than it was a few generations ago. While we can debate the various reasons for the decline in the reproduction rate there's no doubt that this is a big one, not as many people can afford to raise kids. The factual and pragmatic view today is that if you can't afford a large home, one parent taking a lot of time off of work, and $120K+ in education bills then you are not setting your offspring up for success, this is not based on your personal morality, it is based on economics, and on statistical observations of the population. Ergo your lionizing of people who have have children actually amounts to a defense of the economically privileged, and you assert that the benefactors of the systemic increase of wealth inequality in our society are the most moral people. It's despicable really. Go eat your cake, pig.
- eks391 3y ago
  I don't believe whether ones finances allowing someone to have children is the factor for whether they will. From my observation (i have not researched this; this is anecdotal), wealthier people opt to have fewer or no kids, and larger families are usually those of lower income, like there's an inverse relationship between wealth and desired number of children. Even I used to want a large family until I acquired a higher standard of living and certain luxuries that I would likely have to give up if I got married and had kids. There's a popular line of thought that motherhood is below a working woman, and men and woman alike are enjoying increased ease of living and a consumerism lifestyle. The folk who still have to stretch and sacrifice to make ends meet already have the mindsets needed for children (sacrifice, hard work) and aren't affected by the line of belief that motherhood is 'below' since they already have learned not to compare themselves to others. Again this is speculation. I am not a sociologist.
  - safety1st 3y ago
    There used to be some truth to that but not so much anymore. It's historically correct that the poor used to have more kids (and I think are still a bit more likely to have them than the middle class). But what started to happen about 10-15 years ago was that everyone became less likely to start a family except for rich people. To be precise if a woman is rich enough to afford childcare she's much more likely to have kids. Here's an article on the topic: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/oct/25/women-wealth-childcare-family-babies-study https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/oct/25/women-w... - that's about a decade old and the evidence/trend has only grown. Children are just another one of those things that is increasingly out of reach for the American middle class, along with property ownership, health care etc. For the poster I responded to to ignore the economic data and paint the middle class and ordinary human beings as being selfish and immoral is perverse.

ARandomerDude 3y ago

> Furthermore, our society demonizes families, especially large families (perhaps in part stemming from Protestant attempts to restrict Catholic populations in the US) I think it has a lot more to do with feminism than any Protestant/Catholic divide. In the Protestant church I attend, having 6+ kids is pretty normal. Certainly many evangelicals don’t value large families but I think they’re getting that mindset from the culture, rather than sacred Scipture.

zpeti 3y ago
Some say feminism (and progressivism) is just an offshoot of protestantism, albeit a secular, puritan version.

vlovich123 3y ago

No humans aren’t bees or ants. We’re social animals and you can’t ignore society and culture as aspects of evolution. Regardless, you’ve taken this whole thing in a weird direction bringing up a demographic collapse that is a fringe theory at the moment. As for that hypothesis, there’s no actual indication that humanity is in any danger of a collapse just because the boomer generation is passing and our numbers return to normal. Humans can reproduce quite quick and have a long reproductive lifecycle - if it ever becomes a problem society will change to priority life more. As it is, life has gotten pretty difficult in terms of supporting kids and people having fewer is a symptom of that and not consumerism as you claim. And children are both a blessing and a burden. If they weren’t a burden then the statistics about teenager births and the outcome for the parents and babies wouldn’t be as bad as they are.

zpeti 3y ago
> demographic collapse that is a fringe theory at the moment Show me the actual numbers where this isn't a massive change in humanity in the future? This is not a fringe theory. The effects of the collapse we can theorise on, but the collapse will happen now. It's not a question or a theory.
- InSteady 3y ago
  I mean, population decline is a thing, and most 'developed' nations, or whatever you want to call us, are experiencing it. Demographic collapse sounds like a a scary term bandied about by people with an agenda (or those who want to proclaim the sky is falling but bizarrely want to ignore climate change and ecological collapse). I'm just guessing, because I haven't encountered the term and I'm not finding much about it on google. Certainly nothing from scientific or authoritative sources. I guess one article from FT uses the term to describe China's population decline.
- overtomanu 3y ago
  My theory is that, as of now population might be above a "equilibrium". Since it is above equilibrium, it causes increased economic competition to raise kids. So only few economically well off couple have kid's. After few generations, population comes back to some level where economic competition to raise kids is reduced. Also, most of the lineages of people who chose not to have kids would have been wiped out or atleast somewhat reduced (Natural selection at play). So the people living in the future are likely to have kids on the condition that there is no economic penalty. So humanity extinction due to demographic decline is less likely. Instead it might happen due to something like nuclear war. More details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox#It_is_the_nature_of_intelligent_life_to_destroy_itself https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox#It_is_the_nature...

safety1st 3y ago

I'm downvoting this because of the arrogant and dubious notion that people who've chosen not to have children are somehow morally flawed. The fact of the matter is that successfully raising, educating etc. a child is dramatically more expensive than it was a few generations ago. While we can debate the various reasons for the decline in the reproduction rate there's no doubt that this is a big one, not as many people can afford to raise kids. The factual and pragmatic view today is that if you can't afford a large home, one parent taking a lot of time off of work, and $120K+ in education bills then you are not setting your offspring up for success, this is not based on your personal morality, it is based on economics, and on statistical observations of the population. Ergo your lionizing of people who have have children actually amounts to a defense of the economically privileged, and you assert that the benefactors of the systemic increase of wealth inequality in our society are the most moral people. It's despicable really. Go eat your cake, pig.

eks391 3y ago
I don't believe whether ones finances allowing someone to have children is the factor for whether they will. From my observation (i have not researched this; this is anecdotal), wealthier people opt to have fewer or no kids, and larger families are usually those of lower income, like there's an inverse relationship between wealth and desired number of children. Even I used to want a large family until I acquired a higher standard of living and certain luxuries that I would likely have to give up if I got married and had kids. There's a popular line of thought that motherhood is below a working woman, and men and woman alike are enjoying increased ease of living and a consumerism lifestyle. The folk who still have to stretch and sacrifice to make ends meet already have the mindsets needed for children (sacrifice, hard work) and aren't affected by the line of belief that motherhood is 'below' since they already have learned not to compare themselves to others. Again this is speculation. I am not a sociologist.
- safety1st 3y ago
  There used to be some truth to that but not so much anymore. It's historically correct that the poor used to have more kids (and I think are still a bit more likely to have them than the middle class). But what started to happen about 10-15 years ago was that everyone became less likely to start a family except for rich people. To be precise if a woman is rich enough to afford childcare she's much more likely to have kids. Here's an article on the topic: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/oct/25/women-wealth-childcare-family-babies-study https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/oct/25/women-w... - that's about a decade old and the evidence/trend has only grown. Children are just another one of those things that is increasingly out of reach for the American middle class, along with property ownership, health care etc. For the poster I responded to to ignore the economic data and paint the middle class and ordinary human beings as being selfish and immoral is perverse.