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"Bullshit Jobs" is still pound for pound the most impactful concept I ever learned that explained viscerally to me why modern work makes so many people miserabl

"Bullshit Jobs" is still pound for pound the most impactful concept I ever learned that explained viscerally to me why modern work makes so many people miserable.

unmole 3y ago
Like much of Graeber's output, it doesn't actually hold up to scrutiny: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/09500170211015067 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/09500170211015...
- perrygeo 3y ago
  You posted an article from 2021. Here's one from the same publisher in 2023 saying the opposite - https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/09500170231175771 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/09500170231175771 > Contrary to previous studies, it thus finds robust support for Graeber’s theory on bullshit jobs. At the same time, it also confirms existing evidence on the effects of various other factors, including alienation. Work perceived as socially useless is therefore a multifaceted issue that must be addressed from different angles.
  - latency-guy2 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - dappermanneke 3y ago
      looks like HN isn’t interested in hearing how economics actually works today
    - mardifoufs 3y ago
      What? Most of this website LOVES that book lol. Every single thread is full of people basically using it to confirm their biais, even if as the other commenter said it hasn't held up to scrutiny.
      - latency-guy2 3y ago
        Communist and anarchist LARPers are never honest, that is why they live in capitalist societies and not their desired form of society wherever they exist. Another reminder, its never about equality as they claim, its about power, it always is.
        zozbot234 3y ago
        Some people do still live in actual "primitive" tribes or bands. It's been a successful model of human organization for thousands of years, and perhaps the closest wrt. real-world feasibility to what one could call anarchism.
        goatlover 3y ago
        Not exactly viable in a world with billions of people.
      - AlexeyBelov 3y ago
        It's also full of people debunking it (or trying). So why single out the people who like it, as if there is no opposition? Also, people posted studies that are both positive and negative towards Bullshit Jobs. How do you reconsile this? Personally I think it means his theories are not outright madness and have merit, and it's hard to reason about just like with other social studies.
    - protocolture 3y ago
      Its an awful awful book.
  - lazyasciiart 3y ago
    That's a completely different set of authors, published in the same journal - just clarifying for others because I interpreted you as saying that the same authors had published a reversal, which sounded intriguing.
    - perrygeo 3y ago
      A contrary opinion in the same journal from different authors is just as intriguing, if not more so. It clearly indicates that the topic is still up for vigorous debate - in stark contrast to the OP's all-encompassing and easily-falsifiable claim that Graeber's work "doesn't hold up to scrutiny".
      - lazyasciiart 3y ago
        Lots of topics are debatable. Very few that I know of get “we were wrong” articles published in a journal.
- lr4444lr 3y ago
  This is subject to all of the usual caveats of survey-based self reporting. There are a lot of reasons people will not want to admit their jobs are bullshit until you get to know them personally. But among most of the people I know who did disclose that to me, Graeber's generalization and categorization tracks pretty well. It helps me understand why these people feel that way in a common rubric, and give them better advice than just indulging their wild fantasies to go throw everything away that they worked for and become a surfing instructor or teach in a ghetto school after 4 weeks training. It's not like I work as a paid workplace psychology consultant or policy maker.
  - EasyMark 3y ago
    If you go deconstructionist enough you can fall back to absurdism or nihilism and just say none of it matters and it's all bullshit; that's just the way subjective topics like the meaning of society, humanity, etc works. You can also subjectively find meaning in almost any job that isn't digging and then filling back up the hole you just dug. That's why people criticize his take on work.
QuantumGood 3y ago
I looked it up, having not read it before. It's the idea that many modern jobs seem pointless, even to those doing them. They feel unnecessary or redundant, leading to stress and a sense of worthlessness. Graeber argues employment is being valued for its own sake, rather than for meaningful contributions to society. He feels productive ones, like teaching or healthcare, have clear and positive impact. Lots of stuff about how culture and beliefs about work might be encouraging the existence of these unfulfilling jobs.
- zozbot234 3y ago
  Except that teaching and healthcare are some of the least productive sectors in the economy, which is why they're seeing steadily increasing costs over time. Suggesting that no rent-seeking or socially wasteful effort is occurring in these areas is quite ludicrous.
- lr4444lr 3y ago
  Mostly, but not exactly. Graeber would have probably identified a number of jobs in both Healthcare and teaching as BS jobs (e.g. pulmonologists who largely treat smokers who don't have good addiction support as duct tapers, or assistant principals in bureaucratic schools as task masters).

"Bullshit Jobs" is still pound for pound the most impactful concept I ever learned that explained viscerally to me why modern work makes so many people miserable.

unmole 3y ago

Like much of Graeber's output, it doesn't actually hold up to scrutiny: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/09500170211015067 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/09500170211015...

perrygeo 3y ago
You posted an article from 2021. Here's one from the same publisher in 2023 saying the opposite - https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/09500170231175771 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/09500170231175771 > Contrary to previous studies, it thus finds robust support for Graeber’s theory on bullshit jobs. At the same time, it also confirms existing evidence on the effects of various other factors, including alienation. Work perceived as socially useless is therefore a multifaceted issue that must be addressed from different angles.
- latency-guy2 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - dappermanneke 3y ago
    looks like HN isn’t interested in hearing how economics actually works today
  - mardifoufs 3y ago
    What? Most of this website LOVES that book lol. Every single thread is full of people basically using it to confirm their biais, even if as the other commenter said it hasn't held up to scrutiny.
    - latency-guy2 3y ago
      Communist and anarchist LARPers are never honest, that is why they live in capitalist societies and not their desired form of society wherever they exist. Another reminder, its never about equality as they claim, its about power, it always is.
      - zozbot234 3y ago
        Some people do still live in actual "primitive" tribes or bands. It's been a successful model of human organization for thousands of years, and perhaps the closest wrt. real-world feasibility to what one could call anarchism.
        goatlover 3y ago
        Not exactly viable in a world with billions of people.
    - AlexeyBelov 3y ago
      It's also full of people debunking it (or trying). So why single out the people who like it, as if there is no opposition? Also, people posted studies that are both positive and negative towards Bullshit Jobs. How do you reconsile this? Personally I think it means his theories are not outright madness and have merit, and it's hard to reason about just like with other social studies.
  - protocolture 3y ago
    Its an awful awful book.
- lazyasciiart 3y ago
  That's a completely different set of authors, published in the same journal - just clarifying for others because I interpreted you as saying that the same authors had published a reversal, which sounded intriguing.
  - perrygeo 3y ago
    A contrary opinion in the same journal from different authors is just as intriguing, if not more so. It clearly indicates that the topic is still up for vigorous debate - in stark contrast to the OP's all-encompassing and easily-falsifiable claim that Graeber's work "doesn't hold up to scrutiny".
    - lazyasciiart 3y ago
      Lots of topics are debatable. Very few that I know of get “we were wrong” articles published in a journal.
lr4444lr 3y ago
This is subject to all of the usual caveats of survey-based self reporting. There are a lot of reasons people will not want to admit their jobs are bullshit until you get to know them personally. But among most of the people I know who did disclose that to me, Graeber's generalization and categorization tracks pretty well. It helps me understand why these people feel that way in a common rubric, and give them better advice than just indulging their wild fantasies to go throw everything away that they worked for and become a surfing instructor or teach in a ghetto school after 4 weeks training. It's not like I work as a paid workplace psychology consultant or policy maker.
- EasyMark 3y ago
  If you go deconstructionist enough you can fall back to absurdism or nihilism and just say none of it matters and it's all bullshit; that's just the way subjective topics like the meaning of society, humanity, etc works. You can also subjectively find meaning in almost any job that isn't digging and then filling back up the hole you just dug. That's why people criticize his take on work.

QuantumGood 3y ago

I looked it up, having not read it before. It's the idea that many modern jobs seem pointless, even to those doing them. They feel unnecessary or redundant, leading to stress and a sense of worthlessness. Graeber argues employment is being valued for its own sake, rather than for meaningful contributions to society. He feels productive ones, like teaching or healthcare, have clear and positive impact. Lots of stuff about how culture and beliefs about work might be encouraging the existence of these unfulfilling jobs.

zozbot234 3y ago
Except that teaching and healthcare are some of the least productive sectors in the economy, which is why they're seeing steadily increasing costs over time. Suggesting that no rent-seeking or socially wasteful effort is occurring in these areas is quite ludicrous.
lr4444lr 3y ago
Mostly, but not exactly. Graeber would have probably identified a number of jobs in both Healthcare and teaching as BS jobs (e.g. pulmonologists who largely treat smokers who don't have good addiction support as duct tapers, or assistant principals in bureaucratic schools as task masters).