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That’s never going to happen unless they unionize. People are not going to voluntarily turn down jobs as a collective everywhere at the same time in mass number

That’s never going to happen unless they unionize. People are not going to voluntarily turn down jobs as a collective everywhere at the same time in mass numbers.

sillysaurusx 3y ago
But then by definition, that’s what their labor is worth. Unions can be a stopgap measure, but they can’t correct the underlying market forces. Or at least, I haven’t seen particularly persuasive evidence that unions can do more than make everyone collectively equal, which implies that everyone in X industry would be paid the same, or based on seniority rather than merit. Not my cup of tea, but I’m also privileged not to have chosen a field suffering from a surplus of labor. People really can get themselves out, though. I did. There’s no reason for individuals to subject themselves to it unless that’s what they really want. I.e. it doesn’t necessarily seem like a bad thing that situations like these exist.
- vlovich123 3y ago
  > I haven’t seen particularly persuasive evidence that unions can do more than make everyone collectively equal, which implies that everyone in X industry would be paid the same, or based on seniority rather than merit. Not my cup of tea, but I’m also privileged not to have chosen a field suffering from a surplus of labor. It sounds like you actually have a wildly incorrect view of how unions can and do work. you may want to do some more reading and research. For example, the WGA and SAG unions do not pay based on seniority nor does everyone make the same. They do mandate minimums for certain kinds of work but that’s about it. They also have rules about what the studios can and can’t do. That being said, it probably does come at the cost of fewer people being able to find employment than the talent pool exists but it’s hard to measure / support that claim considering there’s more actors and writers now than ever before.
  - sillysaurusx 3y ago
    I’d be interested to learn. If there aren’t harmful effects to outliers (I.e. exceptional people can still earn a great deal) then that does give me pause. Possibly enough to change my mind. Thanks. If you have any references on where specifically to start reading, feel free to drop them here. Otherwise I’ll start at the acronyms you mentioned.
    - awesomeMilou 3y ago
      Most union contracts still allow for KPI's and bonuses, which can be customized and based on personal goals you set with your employer. So not sure what you mean?
      - sillysaurusx 3y ago
        My question is: what are the downsides to unionizing? Whenever someone presents something as having no downside, it’s particularly important to try to examine that. Comments like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39074679 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39074679 are making me think twice, but there must be some catch with unions, or else everyone would do it.
        vlovich123 3y ago
        The downsides are the same as any other organization of people with all the same flaws. The goals of the leaders diverging from the interests of the members, unions negotiating contracts that are harmful to the health of the business (although that’s also on the companies involved to some extent). As for rewards, look at how actors, writers, directors etc get paid - the vast majority of those professions you never hear about and only hear about the ones that are making insane amounts of money from it. The union rules also covers things like residuals and stuff but again afaik it’s all about establishing minimums - the exceptional talent can always negotiate a better deal when they are in demand.
- huytersd 3y ago
  That’s exactly what a union is, a way to force the market to deal with a collective and buck wage lowering market forces. It involves putting gatekeeping licensing in place and making that license a legal requirement for any work done by that collective. This prevents rogue independents from depressing wages. With a union you give up some free agency in exchange for higher wages, better work life balance and job stability.
- kmeisthax 3y ago
  Any sufficiently powerful group of people can make 2 + 2 = 5. In this case, the Japanese animation industry is concentrated, so they can demand lots of hours for little pay. Of course, when you make 2 + 2 = 5, there's always a -1 floating out there that someone else has to suffer for. Right now, the animation industry sets the price, so the individual animators take the hit. If the animators unionize, then they can push back on that. The market forces here are that artists cost money, but the production committees and studios don't want to pay for them, so they arrange the industry in such a way as to keep artists out of the picture.
- awesomeMilou 3y ago
  which implies that everyone in X industry would be paid the same, or based on seniority rather than merit. You're implying that being paid by seniority isn't already the case for most of the tech industry. Last time I checked, most job adverts are looking for "X years of experience in Y". > Or at least, I haven’t seen particularly persuasive evidence that unions can do more than make everyone collectively equal The work culture in europe is largely based on standardized work contracts, enforced by unions. For example, the entire railway industry in Germany is collectively unionized (~40k members) and is holding negotiations right now, to renew the terms of these standardized contracts. The goal of a union is not to "make everyone equal", it is to enforce collective bargaining rights. This usually does lead to better employment conditions for everyone involved though.
steveBK123 3y ago
Yes, that is why I defined it as "This is like a collective action problem."

That’s never going to happen unless they unionize. People are not going to voluntarily turn down jobs as a collective everywhere at the same time in mass numbers.

sillysaurusx 3y ago

But then by definition, that’s what their labor is worth. Unions can be a stopgap measure, but they can’t correct the underlying market forces. Or at least, I haven’t seen particularly persuasive evidence that unions can do more than make everyone collectively equal, which implies that everyone in X industry would be paid the same, or based on seniority rather than merit. Not my cup of tea, but I’m also privileged not to have chosen a field suffering from a surplus of labor. People really can get themselves out, though. I did. There’s no reason for individuals to subject themselves to it unless that’s what they really want. I.e. it doesn’t necessarily seem like a bad thing that situations like these exist.

vlovich123 3y ago
> I haven’t seen particularly persuasive evidence that unions can do more than make everyone collectively equal, which implies that everyone in X industry would be paid the same, or based on seniority rather than merit. Not my cup of tea, but I’m also privileged not to have chosen a field suffering from a surplus of labor. It sounds like you actually have a wildly incorrect view of how unions can and do work. you may want to do some more reading and research. For example, the WGA and SAG unions do not pay based on seniority nor does everyone make the same. They do mandate minimums for certain kinds of work but that’s about it. They also have rules about what the studios can and can’t do. That being said, it probably does come at the cost of fewer people being able to find employment than the talent pool exists but it’s hard to measure / support that claim considering there’s more actors and writers now than ever before.
- sillysaurusx 3y ago
  I’d be interested to learn. If there aren’t harmful effects to outliers (I.e. exceptional people can still earn a great deal) then that does give me pause. Possibly enough to change my mind. Thanks. If you have any references on where specifically to start reading, feel free to drop them here. Otherwise I’ll start at the acronyms you mentioned.
  - awesomeMilou 3y ago
    Most union contracts still allow for KPI's and bonuses, which can be customized and based on personal goals you set with your employer. So not sure what you mean?
    - sillysaurusx 3y ago
      My question is: what are the downsides to unionizing? Whenever someone presents something as having no downside, it’s particularly important to try to examine that. Comments like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39074679 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39074679 are making me think twice, but there must be some catch with unions, or else everyone would do it.
      - vlovich123 3y ago
        The downsides are the same as any other organization of people with all the same flaws. The goals of the leaders diverging from the interests of the members, unions negotiating contracts that are harmful to the health of the business (although that’s also on the companies involved to some extent). As for rewards, look at how actors, writers, directors etc get paid - the vast majority of those professions you never hear about and only hear about the ones that are making insane amounts of money from it. The union rules also covers things like residuals and stuff but again afaik it’s all about establishing minimums - the exceptional talent can always negotiate a better deal when they are in demand.
huytersd 3y ago
That’s exactly what a union is, a way to force the market to deal with a collective and buck wage lowering market forces. It involves putting gatekeeping licensing in place and making that license a legal requirement for any work done by that collective. This prevents rogue independents from depressing wages. With a union you give up some free agency in exchange for higher wages, better work life balance and job stability.
kmeisthax 3y ago
Any sufficiently powerful group of people can make 2 + 2 = 5. In this case, the Japanese animation industry is concentrated, so they can demand lots of hours for little pay. Of course, when you make 2 + 2 = 5, there's always a -1 floating out there that someone else has to suffer for. Right now, the animation industry sets the price, so the individual animators take the hit. If the animators unionize, then they can push back on that. The market forces here are that artists cost money, but the production committees and studios don't want to pay for them, so they arrange the industry in such a way as to keep artists out of the picture.
awesomeMilou 3y ago
which implies that everyone in X industry would be paid the same, or based on seniority rather than merit. You're implying that being paid by seniority isn't already the case for most of the tech industry. Last time I checked, most job adverts are looking for "X years of experience in Y". > Or at least, I haven’t seen particularly persuasive evidence that unions can do more than make everyone collectively equal The work culture in europe is largely based on standardized work contracts, enforced by unions. For example, the entire railway industry in Germany is collectively unionized (~40k members) and is holding negotiations right now, to renew the terms of these standardized contracts. The goal of a union is not to "make everyone equal", it is to enforce collective bargaining rights. This usually does lead to better employment conditions for everyone involved though.

steveBK123 3y ago

Yes, that is why I defined it as "This is like a collective action problem."