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If only most of the taxes the government takes actually went to benefit society. At least then there could be a sympathetic argument made for where $6 trillion

If only most of the taxes the government takes actually went to benefit society. At least then there could be a sympathetic argument made for where $6 trillion goes each year. That's $30,000 per adult, per year, in taxes (local+state+federal). The equation: government == society, is false. Some governments are effective and efficient, some are not; some work for the people, some work against the people, and in varying degrees. We take as much money out of the economy through all forms of taxation as nations such as Germany, but we don't have the results to show for it that they do. They have better roads, better healthcare, better infrastructure overall, and better education.

skore 14y ago
Oh absolutely. Being a German looking over the pond, I would be seriously pissed off about what happens in government if I was a US citizen. What I don't like about these discussions, particularly when they are driven by US citizens, is the amount of proud apathy or downright confused resignation that is displayed. Surely a couple of corporations have spent a proper buck to make that happen - Confuse people so thoroughly that they start questioning whether this whole democracy and society-thing is worth it to begin with.
- jimmyvanhalen 14y ago
  How is your country doing with your high tax rates? Do you ever wonder why we are the center of the universe? Do you ever wonder why Apple, Google, Facebook, etc. were all started here in America? In 1978 Congress for once did the sensible thing and slashed capital gains taxes: This resulted in the supply of venture capital exploding. By the start of 1979 a massive commitment to venture capital funds had taken place, rising from a pathetic $39 million in 1977 to a staggering $570 million at the end of 1978. Tax collections on long-term capital gains, despite the dire predictions of Keynesian big-spending critics of tax cuts, leapt from $8.5 billion in 1978 to $10.6 billion in 1979, $16.5 billion in 1983, and $23.7 billion in 1985. By 1981 venture capital outlays had soared to $1.4 billion, and the total amount of venture capital had risen to $5.8 billion. In 1981 the maximum tax rate on long-term capital gains was cut to 20 percent. This resulted in the venture capital pool surging to $11.5 billion. Astonishingly enough—to conventional economists, that is—venture capital outlays rose to $1.8 billion in the midst of the 1982 depression. This was about 400 percent more than had been out-laid during the 1970s slump. In 1983 these outlays rose to nearly $3 billion....In 1982 the U.S. General Accounting Office sampled 72 companies that had been launched with venture capital since the 1978 capital-gains tax cut. The results were startling. Starting with $209 million dollars in funds, these companies had paid $350 million in federal taxes, generated $900 million in export income, and directly created 135,000 jobs.
  - skore 14y ago
    As the country with the fourth largest nominal GDP [1], we are doing quite well, thank you, although we have to work a little harder to deal with all that "innovation" that came from the US before and in 2008. Look, I'm not saying that the US is not wonderful - but there are a couple of areas where it just isn't wonderful at all. I have no idea why you quote that text related to the Laffer Curve [2] (please learn to cite your sources). After all, it seems that Germany has adopted some of its principles [3] and numbers like that do not happen in a vaccuum as the text seems to suggest. But there is still nobody in this thread arguing for excessive or unreasonable taxation. It is still about companies being asked to pay their fair share. That being said, I don't believe in money as much as I believe in human progress and quoting numbers like that isn't really helping - the social situation in the US and the impact that your "strong" corporate culture has on the world are areas that speak a much clearer language. There are perfectly reasonable arguments why the US is the worst place to start a company in (Immigration Policy and Software Patents would be on the top of my list), but at 300m people compared to our 80m at a similar HDI, I just don't think that the two countries are that comparable. You won the war and it took us 40 years to reunite our own country, for crying out loud! Everybody has their own set of challenges. It would be incredibly arrogant to respond to another person trying to suggest lessons that they have learned simply by parroting their challenges or solutions that simply don't follow the discussion. Then again, you start out by asking me how I like you being the center of the universe. Well - I like to understand myself as a citizen of the world and find little use in pissing matches. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomin... [2] http://brookesnews.com/072409laffercurve.html http://brookesnews.com/072409laffercurve.html [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve#Outside_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve#Outside_the_United...
    - jimmyvanhalen 14y ago
      >I have no idea why you quote that text related to the Laffer Curve. then our discussion is over.

skore 14y ago

Oh absolutely. Being a German looking over the pond, I would be seriously pissed off about what happens in government if I was a US citizen. What I don't like about these discussions, particularly when they are driven by US citizens, is the amount of proud apathy or downright confused resignation that is displayed. Surely a couple of corporations have spent a proper buck to make that happen - Confuse people so thoroughly that they start questioning whether this whole democracy and society-thing is worth it to begin with.

jimmyvanhalen 14y ago
How is your country doing with your high tax rates? Do you ever wonder why we are the center of the universe? Do you ever wonder why Apple, Google, Facebook, etc. were all started here in America? In 1978 Congress for once did the sensible thing and slashed capital gains taxes: This resulted in the supply of venture capital exploding. By the start of 1979 a massive commitment to venture capital funds had taken place, rising from a pathetic $39 million in 1977 to a staggering $570 million at the end of 1978. Tax collections on long-term capital gains, despite the dire predictions of Keynesian big-spending critics of tax cuts, leapt from $8.5 billion in 1978 to $10.6 billion in 1979, $16.5 billion in 1983, and $23.7 billion in 1985. By 1981 venture capital outlays had soared to $1.4 billion, and the total amount of venture capital had risen to $5.8 billion. In 1981 the maximum tax rate on long-term capital gains was cut to 20 percent. This resulted in the venture capital pool surging to $11.5 billion. Astonishingly enough—to conventional economists, that is—venture capital outlays rose to $1.8 billion in the midst of the 1982 depression. This was about 400 percent more than had been out-laid during the 1970s slump. In 1983 these outlays rose to nearly $3 billion....In 1982 the U.S. General Accounting Office sampled 72 companies that had been launched with venture capital since the 1978 capital-gains tax cut. The results were startling. Starting with $209 million dollars in funds, these companies had paid $350 million in federal taxes, generated $900 million in export income, and directly created 135,000 jobs.
- skore 14y ago
  As the country with the fourth largest nominal GDP [1], we are doing quite well, thank you, although we have to work a little harder to deal with all that "innovation" that came from the US before and in 2008. Look, I'm not saying that the US is not wonderful - but there are a couple of areas where it just isn't wonderful at all. I have no idea why you quote that text related to the Laffer Curve [2] (please learn to cite your sources). After all, it seems that Germany has adopted some of its principles [3] and numbers like that do not happen in a vaccuum as the text seems to suggest. But there is still nobody in this thread arguing for excessive or unreasonable taxation. It is still about companies being asked to pay their fair share. That being said, I don't believe in money as much as I believe in human progress and quoting numbers like that isn't really helping - the social situation in the US and the impact that your "strong" corporate culture has on the world are areas that speak a much clearer language. There are perfectly reasonable arguments why the US is the worst place to start a company in (Immigration Policy and Software Patents would be on the top of my list), but at 300m people compared to our 80m at a similar HDI, I just don't think that the two countries are that comparable. You won the war and it took us 40 years to reunite our own country, for crying out loud! Everybody has their own set of challenges. It would be incredibly arrogant to respond to another person trying to suggest lessons that they have learned simply by parroting their challenges or solutions that simply don't follow the discussion. Then again, you start out by asking me how I like you being the center of the universe. Well - I like to understand myself as a citizen of the world and find little use in pissing matches. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomin... [2] http://brookesnews.com/072409laffercurve.html http://brookesnews.com/072409laffercurve.html [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve#Outside_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve#Outside_the_United...
  - jimmyvanhalen 14y ago
    >I have no idea why you quote that text related to the Laffer Curve. then our discussion is over.