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"killing each other over whose god is correct" is a profound misunderstanding of humanity. That's not why humans kill each other now, or in any time in history.

"killing each other over whose god is correct" is a profound misunderstanding of humanity. That's not why humans kill each other now, or in any time in history. It is and always has been simple & rational game theory: fear of the other tribe killing you for your resources, or just simply because they're afraid you might kill them for _their_ resources. For example, this is (one of) the core reasons of why peace in Israel/Palestine is so hard (each side fears accepting sovereignty of the other side means they will continue to encroach and wipe them out). Humans are pretty clever and ingenious at all levels

wolverine876 3y ago
That's true sometimes, but sometimes people just want to take what their neighbors have. Russia's government faced no risk of Ukraine attacking, or NATO for that matter. They just wanted Ukraine.
- rpmisms 3y ago
  That's reductive. I'd compare it to the Cuban missile crisis. We were basically pointing a gun at their heads.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    It's just false. There was no way NATO or Ukraine was attacking Russia, in ten thousand years. NATO can barely be bothered to fund their militaries even now, and the US Republican party can't be bothered to fund Ukraine. Even after Putin invaded Ukraine in 2014 (and Georgia before that) the NATO countries were still making gas and other trade deals, thinking they would bring Russia into the fold of peaceful, free-trading nations. Trump tried to work with Putin; Obama did the big 'reset', etc., etc.
  - kibwen 3y ago
    "How dare these other countries respond to my aggression by forming a defensive pact to defend against my aggression! I'll aggress them for that!" Russia is the one pointing the gun is this scenario, but they sure do love to pretend otherwise.
    - rpmisms 3y ago
      NATO was formed because of the Soviet Union. Russia is a different country.
      - oneshtein 3y ago
        Russia pretends that it is the USSR in UN.
- pests 3y ago
  Oh, just like America felt no risk when Russia tried to move into Cuba?
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    The Soviets were military expansionists, aggressively threatening and preparing for conflict with NATO. They were moving nuclear weapons into Cuba. NATO, as I pointed out, was trying to make Russia a trade partner even after they invaded Georgia and Ukraine, and to this day most countries can hardly fund their militaries (even though many individually have economies larger than Russia's and could fund larger militaries by themselves). NATO didn't conduct exercises, was very careful about putting forces near Russia's border - even on NATO territor, had no facilities in Ukraine (which has never been a member), and certainly didn't move nuclear weapons anywhere near Russia.
    - Intralexical 3y ago
      > They were moving nuclear weapons into Cuba. For the record, the US had put nukes in Turkey before the USSR put them in Cuba. The crisis was resolved by removing them from both, but only the withdrawal from Cuba was publicized. Of course, the other stuff you said was accurate. This isn't (…or wasn't) the Cold War, nor was Russia's oppression of Eastern Europe okay during the Cold War either.
      - wolverine876 3y ago
        > For the record, the US had put nukes in Turkey Good point.
- aurareturn 3y ago
  NATO expansion is the exact definition of what you just replied to.
  - Intralexical 3y ago
    NATO doesn't "expand". Free, independent, and sovereign countries join NATO because Russia keeps trying to kill them when they don't join NATO. Usually it takes quite a few years of hand-wringing from the NATO side to even agree to consider letting them in.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      Don't you remember when NATO sent tanks into Hungary and Czechoslovakia, forcing them to remain in the alliance?
    - aurareturn 3y ago
      Still falls into the definition of the OP.
- wait_a_minute 3y ago
  It is possible there are significant internal issues that became impossible to manage any longer unless fronting the need for a justified massive military offensive to distract the locals from something they were otherwise becoming preoccupied with. I do not foresee there being individuals who really hunger for acquisition of materials in that same way anymore as in the old days. These days, those energies are channeled almost entirely into acquiring as much valuable IP as possible and building the most bleeding edge platforms these days, which is usually good for the user/customer/consumer/investor/everyone. Fortunately, humanity's taste for that old type of aquisition has dwindled. I think the Internet and Democracy and the American Constitution have succeeded and some places that never wanted those things to succeed now need distractions at home so their populations don't start expecting the same types of possibilities or freedoms. People noticed what changed during the pandemic and after and suddenly everyone is demanding the same type of lives and opportunities and freedoms that the free people of the West have, especially in the United States... so some places became less stable than others and needed to drum up nationalistic fervor to feign justification for a war in order to try to stymy the changing tides at home. It's like when Boris Yeltsin visited a supermarket in the USA and couldn't believe what he was experiencing here versus what he expected to experience based on what he was primed to believe, versus what he experienced in his own home...that story alone when he went back contributed a lot to the eventual downfall of the USSR when people learned the truth. I think what's happening right now except at a much larger and unavoidable scale because of smartphones and social media and more easy access to the open international web where everyone can see how the world works.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    > I do not foresee there being individuals who really hunger for acquisition of materials in that same way anymore as in the old days. Why not? Putin has clearly expressed a desire to restore Russian empire, and is doing it. > everyone is demanding the same type of lives and opportunities and freedoms that the free people of the West have, especially in the United States...so some places became less stable than others and needed to drum up nationalistic fervor That's happening all over the world: Russia, US, UK, India, Hungary, Poland, Italy, Israel, China, etc etc etc. It doesn't seem tied to a desire for US lifestyle. > the Internet and Democracy and the American Constitution have succeeded Have the latter two been under more threat in decades? And under threat arguably from the first one?
- webreac 3y ago
  The war in Ukraine is about selling American shale gas. There are probably other reasons, like dividing Europe and Russia. The second Gulf War was motivated by Saddam Hussein's desire to sell his oil in euros to fight American imperialism. America is playing the marionnetist for all its benefits.
therealdrag0 3y ago
What about the crusades? Traveling from France to Israel to “take back the holy land” seems pretty religiously motivated.
- temp112123 3y ago
  [dead]
BurningFrog 3y ago
Yeah, there is the noble reason you tell people - often including yourself - and there is the real reason that we don't talk or think about.

wolverine876 3y ago

That's true sometimes, but sometimes people just want to take what their neighbors have. Russia's government faced no risk of Ukraine attacking, or NATO for that matter. They just wanted Ukraine.

rpmisms 3y ago
That's reductive. I'd compare it to the Cuban missile crisis. We were basically pointing a gun at their heads.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  It's just false. There was no way NATO or Ukraine was attacking Russia, in ten thousand years. NATO can barely be bothered to fund their militaries even now, and the US Republican party can't be bothered to fund Ukraine. Even after Putin invaded Ukraine in 2014 (and Georgia before that) the NATO countries were still making gas and other trade deals, thinking they would bring Russia into the fold of peaceful, free-trading nations. Trump tried to work with Putin; Obama did the big 'reset', etc., etc.
- kibwen 3y ago
  "How dare these other countries respond to my aggression by forming a defensive pact to defend against my aggression! I'll aggress them for that!" Russia is the one pointing the gun is this scenario, but they sure do love to pretend otherwise.
  - rpmisms 3y ago
    NATO was formed because of the Soviet Union. Russia is a different country.
    - oneshtein 3y ago
      Russia pretends that it is the USSR in UN.
pests 3y ago
Oh, just like America felt no risk when Russia tried to move into Cuba?
- wolverine876 3y ago
  The Soviets were military expansionists, aggressively threatening and preparing for conflict with NATO. They were moving nuclear weapons into Cuba. NATO, as I pointed out, was trying to make Russia a trade partner even after they invaded Georgia and Ukraine, and to this day most countries can hardly fund their militaries (even though many individually have economies larger than Russia's and could fund larger militaries by themselves). NATO didn't conduct exercises, was very careful about putting forces near Russia's border - even on NATO territor, had no facilities in Ukraine (which has never been a member), and certainly didn't move nuclear weapons anywhere near Russia.
  - Intralexical 3y ago
    > They were moving nuclear weapons into Cuba. For the record, the US had put nukes in Turkey before the USSR put them in Cuba. The crisis was resolved by removing them from both, but only the withdrawal from Cuba was publicized. Of course, the other stuff you said was accurate. This isn't (…or wasn't) the Cold War, nor was Russia's oppression of Eastern Europe okay during the Cold War either.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      > For the record, the US had put nukes in Turkey Good point.
aurareturn 3y ago
NATO expansion is the exact definition of what you just replied to.
- Intralexical 3y ago
  NATO doesn't "expand". Free, independent, and sovereign countries join NATO because Russia keeps trying to kill them when they don't join NATO. Usually it takes quite a few years of hand-wringing from the NATO side to even agree to consider letting them in.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    Don't you remember when NATO sent tanks into Hungary and Czechoslovakia, forcing them to remain in the alliance?
  - aurareturn 3y ago
    Still falls into the definition of the OP.
wait_a_minute 3y ago
It is possible there are significant internal issues that became impossible to manage any longer unless fronting the need for a justified massive military offensive to distract the locals from something they were otherwise becoming preoccupied with. I do not foresee there being individuals who really hunger for acquisition of materials in that same way anymore as in the old days. These days, those energies are channeled almost entirely into acquiring as much valuable IP as possible and building the most bleeding edge platforms these days, which is usually good for the user/customer/consumer/investor/everyone. Fortunately, humanity's taste for that old type of aquisition has dwindled. I think the Internet and Democracy and the American Constitution have succeeded and some places that never wanted those things to succeed now need distractions at home so their populations don't start expecting the same types of possibilities or freedoms. People noticed what changed during the pandemic and after and suddenly everyone is demanding the same type of lives and opportunities and freedoms that the free people of the West have, especially in the United States... so some places became less stable than others and needed to drum up nationalistic fervor to feign justification for a war in order to try to stymy the changing tides at home. It's like when Boris Yeltsin visited a supermarket in the USA and couldn't believe what he was experiencing here versus what he expected to experience based on what he was primed to believe, versus what he experienced in his own home...that story alone when he went back contributed a lot to the eventual downfall of the USSR when people learned the truth. I think what's happening right now except at a much larger and unavoidable scale because of smartphones and social media and more easy access to the open international web where everyone can see how the world works.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  > I do not foresee there being individuals who really hunger for acquisition of materials in that same way anymore as in the old days. Why not? Putin has clearly expressed a desire to restore Russian empire, and is doing it. > everyone is demanding the same type of lives and opportunities and freedoms that the free people of the West have, especially in the United States...so some places became less stable than others and needed to drum up nationalistic fervor That's happening all over the world: Russia, US, UK, India, Hungary, Poland, Italy, Israel, China, etc etc etc. It doesn't seem tied to a desire for US lifestyle. > the Internet and Democracy and the American Constitution have succeeded Have the latter two been under more threat in decades? And under threat arguably from the first one?
webreac 3y ago
The war in Ukraine is about selling American shale gas. There are probably other reasons, like dividing Europe and Russia. The second Gulf War was motivated by Saddam Hussein's desire to sell his oil in euros to fight American imperialism. America is playing the marionnetist for all its benefits.

therealdrag0 3y ago

What about the crusades? Traveling from France to Israel to “take back the holy land” seems pretty religiously motivated.

temp112123 3y ago
[dead]

BurningFrog 3y ago

Yeah, there is the noble reason you tell people - often including yourself - and there is the real reason that we don't talk or think about.