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GP won’t suffer from anarchy or societal collapse. According to internationally recognized state borders, they live in Ukraine, not in Russia. Russians have lo

GP won’t suffer from anarchy or societal collapse. According to internationally recognized state borders, they live in Ukraine, not in Russia. Russians have lost approximately half of the land they have occupied in the first 3 months of the full-scale war. We have repeatedly observed that Ukrainian government is willing and capable of bringing law and order to these liberated territories.

Georgelemental 3y ago
I know someone who has spent a lot of time working in Ukraine, and has acquaintances there they keep in touch with. Their description of the situation is not nearly as rosy as yours. The war (which, for the Donbass, started in 2014) has devastated an immense amount of territory. Ukraine had Europe's lowest fertility rate even before the war, and now millions of working-age men are dead, wounded our have left the country, which makes prospects of a quick recovery slim. Also, Ukraine's government is extremely corrupt, and while less autocratic than Russia it is very far from a model democracy (was even before the war, and war tends to make countries more corrupt and authoritarian). The best thing for GP to hope for would likely be peace, as soon as possible, and which side of the armistice line they fall on won't make much difference for them.
- Const-me 3y ago
  > not nearly as rosy as yours Ukraine is at war, nothing rosy about that. Still, living conditions of people north of Kyiv, north of Kharkiv, or in Kherson is dramatically better than GP’s situation. Note GP can’t even freely talk to English-speaking strangers here on HN because they fear the consequences from the Russian invaders who call themselves “government”. GP has very good reasons for that fear. Russians are doing horrible things to Ukrainians on the occupied territories, for example https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/torture-chambers-ukraines-kherson-financed-by-russian-state-investigators-2023-03-02/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/torture-chambers-ukrain...
  - Georgelemental 3y ago
    > Still, living conditions of people north of Kyiv, north of Kharkiv, or in Kherson is dramatically better than GP’s situation. They are also dramatically better in Moscow, St. Petersburg, or Vladivostok. Of course being far from the front lines is better than being near them. > GP can’t even freely talk to English-speaking stranger People in Ukrainian-controlled territory can't talk freely either, there have been many cases of extrajudicial arrests and even killings of dissidents by Ukrainian government authorities. For example, peruse Gonzalo Lira's list (Lira himself died a week ago in Ukrainian custody): https://twitter.com/GonzaloLira1968/status/1517457768797679618 https://twitter.com/GonzaloLira1968/status/15174577687976796... --- This is a war between two thuggish regimes. One thug might be a bit more brutal than the other, but the war itself is what's doing the most harm to ordinary people.
    - Const-me 3y ago
      > being far from the front lines is better than being near them Kherson is less than 5 km from the active war zone. Northern parts of Kharkiv oblast have a Russian border nearby, with Russian recon groups routinely trying to infiltrate. > can't talk freely either I have several friends currently in Ukraine. None of them is scared of expressing their political views, neither IRL nor on the internets. None of them supports Russia for obvious reasons, but not all of them are huge fans of their current government. > extrajudicial arrests and even killings Wikipedia has an interesting article about the guy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzalo_Lira https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzalo_Lira The article says the arrest was lawful, Ukrainians released him on house arrest, he tried to flee the country, then he was arrested for real and died of pneumonia in custody. Every death is a tragedy, but I don’t believe Ukrainian government deliberately killed that person. Why would they fake pneumonia during the war, at the time when random civilians are routinely killed by Russian missiles and drones across the whole country? > This is a war between two thuggish regimes This is Ukraine’s war of independence. Ukrainians have lost the last time in 1917-1922. This time, things will be different.
      - Georgelemental 3y ago

Georgelemental 3y ago

I know someone who has spent a lot of time working in Ukraine, and has acquaintances there they keep in touch with. Their description of the situation is not nearly as rosy as yours. The war (which, for the Donbass, started in 2014) has devastated an immense amount of territory. Ukraine had Europe's lowest fertility rate even before the war, and now millions of working-age men are dead, wounded our have left the country, which makes prospects of a quick recovery slim. Also, Ukraine's government is extremely corrupt, and while less autocratic than Russia it is very far from a model democracy (was even before the war, and war tends to make countries more corrupt and authoritarian). The best thing for GP to hope for would likely be peace, as soon as possible, and which side of the armistice line they fall on won't make much difference for them.

Const-me 3y ago
> not nearly as rosy as yours Ukraine is at war, nothing rosy about that. Still, living conditions of people north of Kyiv, north of Kharkiv, or in Kherson is dramatically better than GP’s situation. Note GP can’t even freely talk to English-speaking strangers here on HN because they fear the consequences from the Russian invaders who call themselves “government”. GP has very good reasons for that fear. Russians are doing horrible things to Ukrainians on the occupied territories, for example https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/torture-chambers-ukraines-kherson-financed-by-russian-state-investigators-2023-03-02/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/torture-chambers-ukrain...
- Georgelemental 3y ago
  > Still, living conditions of people north of Kyiv, north of Kharkiv, or in Kherson is dramatically better than GP’s situation. They are also dramatically better in Moscow, St. Petersburg, or Vladivostok. Of course being far from the front lines is better than being near them. > GP can’t even freely talk to English-speaking stranger People in Ukrainian-controlled territory can't talk freely either, there have been many cases of extrajudicial arrests and even killings of dissidents by Ukrainian government authorities. For example, peruse Gonzalo Lira's list (Lira himself died a week ago in Ukrainian custody): https://twitter.com/GonzaloLira1968/status/1517457768797679618 https://twitter.com/GonzaloLira1968/status/15174577687976796... --- This is a war between two thuggish regimes. One thug might be a bit more brutal than the other, but the war itself is what's doing the most harm to ordinary people.
  - Const-me 3y ago
    > being far from the front lines is better than being near them Kherson is less than 5 km from the active war zone. Northern parts of Kharkiv oblast have a Russian border nearby, with Russian recon groups routinely trying to infiltrate. > can't talk freely either I have several friends currently in Ukraine. None of them is scared of expressing their political views, neither IRL nor on the internets. None of them supports Russia for obvious reasons, but not all of them are huge fans of their current government. > extrajudicial arrests and even killings Wikipedia has an interesting article about the guy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzalo_Lira https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzalo_Lira The article says the arrest was lawful, Ukrainians released him on house arrest, he tried to flee the country, then he was arrested for real and died of pneumonia in custody. Every death is a tragedy, but I don’t believe Ukrainian government deliberately killed that person. Why would they fake pneumonia during the war, at the time when random civilians are routinely killed by Russian missiles and drones across the whole country? > This is a war between two thuggish regimes This is Ukraine’s war of independence. Ukrainians have lost the last time in 1917-1922. This time, things will be different.
    - Georgelemental 3y ago