3 ms·

A reduction in soundstage/width is likely due to using "joint stereo" or "intensity stereo" encoder modes, which do things such as mid-side (M-S) conversion (wh

A reduction in soundstage/width is likely due to using "joint stereo" or "intensity stereo" encoder modes, which do things such as mid-side (M-S) conversion (which isn't itself the culprit) in order to give more bits to M (which results in better quality for sounds with high L-R correlation, like vocals) and fewer bits to S (which results in less quality for sounds with low L-R correlation, like a drum kit stereo miked). If using plain old "stereo" mode instead, this problem doesn't occur, but you need a higher overall bitrate for correlated sounds to come through at the same quality, so it's rarely used at modest bitrates and instead tends to be reserved for only the highest bitrates. Thus, comparing mp3@192 with mp3@320 often actually means comparing mp3@192joint with mp3@320stereo and therefore the listener will find very little if any improvement in the quality of mono-miked center-panned sounds (vocals, etc.) but a decent improvement in the quality of wide sounds (cymbals, reverb, string sections, etc.) since the 320 will have only a few more bits for "mid" but way more bits for "side" so to speak, relative to the 192.

NavinF 3y ago
Interesting, how can I check if a file was encoded with joint stereo? I've never seen those keywords in ffprobe output Is this only an issue for mp3 or do other codecs also use fewer bits for the difference between channels?
- bayindirh 3y ago
  "file" command outputs the encoding used, alongside details. Usage: "file test.mp3" Rsult: test.mp3: Audio file with ID3 version 2.3.0, contains: MPEG ADTS, layer III, v1, 320 kbps, 48 kHz, JntStereo
bayindirh 3y ago
Thanks for the technical details, I didn't know how intensity/joint modes work, however I never use them. The tests I have done is all encoded by myself. I have purchased 24bit WAV of Radiohead's OK Computer Remastered. I encoded it to FLAC, and 320CBR Stereo with LAME. I still can feel the difference on soundstage, and can create a audible residue file by subtracting MP3 from FLAC version. I agree that current iteration of encoders create very good audio, however given that your audio system can render high resolution audio, the difference is still audible.
- jorvi 3y ago
  Lossless is for archival only. This has been common knowledge for years in the audiophile community at this point. For active listening, the gain going from 320 MP3 / 256 AAC to lossless is beyond minuscule. What you are hearing is far more likely to be placebo.
  - bayindirh 3y ago
    Not every human is created equal when it comes to ear and sound processing. I have met people with sub 20Hz hearing, and people with ears so sharp, they were able to pick a single wrong note from a single instrument while watching a recording of a symphony orchestra (I played together with them). MP3@320kbps CBR and AAC@256kbps are pretty good for normal listening, but if you have the hardware to render, lossless formats creates a richer soundstage. I have an amplifier which can render it, and I'm listening music with it for 30 years now, so I can hear the difference. At the end of the day, if your audio pipeline can render the differential residue between MP3@320kbps and FLAC, you can hear it. Now, you can say that "are you attentive enough to perceive such difference", I'm not listening that intently 75% of the time, but it pays off when I put some time aside to listen to my favorite album for the sake of listening it.
    - hunter2_ 3y ago
      By far the main source of degradation in any typical analog audio path is going to be transducers (microphones, speakers, phono cartridges, tape heads) and inferior media (tape, etc.). The vast majority of modern amplifiers, and high end older amplifiers, are extremely transparent with good margins beyond typical human hearing; any issues like noise, harmonic distortion, uneven response, inadequate damping factor, etc. introduced at the amplifier would typically be masked by quirks of the speakers, and revealed only by measuring upstream of the speakers.

NavinF 3y ago

Interesting, how can I check if a file was encoded with joint stereo? I've never seen those keywords in ffprobe output Is this only an issue for mp3 or do other codecs also use fewer bits for the difference between channels?

bayindirh 3y ago
"file" command outputs the encoding used, alongside details. Usage: "file test.mp3" Rsult: test.mp3: Audio file with ID3 version 2.3.0, contains: MPEG ADTS, layer III, v1, 320 kbps, 48 kHz, JntStereo

bayindirh 3y ago

Thanks for the technical details, I didn't know how intensity/joint modes work, however I never use them. The tests I have done is all encoded by myself. I have purchased 24bit WAV of Radiohead's OK Computer Remastered. I encoded it to FLAC, and 320CBR Stereo with LAME. I still can feel the difference on soundstage, and can create a audible residue file by subtracting MP3 from FLAC version. I agree that current iteration of encoders create very good audio, however given that your audio system can render high resolution audio, the difference is still audible.

jorvi 3y ago
Lossless is for archival only. This has been common knowledge for years in the audiophile community at this point. For active listening, the gain going from 320 MP3 / 256 AAC to lossless is beyond minuscule. What you are hearing is far more likely to be placebo.
- bayindirh 3y ago
  Not every human is created equal when it comes to ear and sound processing. I have met people with sub 20Hz hearing, and people with ears so sharp, they were able to pick a single wrong note from a single instrument while watching a recording of a symphony orchestra (I played together with them). MP3@320kbps CBR and AAC@256kbps are pretty good for normal listening, but if you have the hardware to render, lossless formats creates a richer soundstage. I have an amplifier which can render it, and I'm listening music with it for 30 years now, so I can hear the difference. At the end of the day, if your audio pipeline can render the differential residue between MP3@320kbps and FLAC, you can hear it. Now, you can say that "are you attentive enough to perceive such difference", I'm not listening that intently 75% of the time, but it pays off when I put some time aside to listen to my favorite album for the sake of listening it.
  - hunter2_ 3y ago
    By far the main source of degradation in any typical analog audio path is going to be transducers (microphones, speakers, phono cartridges, tape heads) and inferior media (tape, etc.). The vast majority of modern amplifiers, and high end older amplifiers, are extremely transparent with good margins beyond typical human hearing; any issues like noise, harmonic distortion, uneven response, inadequate damping factor, etc. introduced at the amplifier would typically be masked by quirks of the speakers, and revealed only by measuring upstream of the speakers.