4 ms·

For "fair share", I'd settle for "not grotesquely underpaying as a % of income, compared to peons like myself". This isn't about Apple specifically as it is ab

by jbooth 15y ago

For "fair share", I'd settle for "not grotesquely underpaying as a % of income, compared to peons like myself". This isn't about Apple specifically as it is about distortions from the fact that big players have the means to pay a lower % of taxes than little players. As far as what they consume, they're based in the US, with the best technical workforce in the world. Everything about Apple is an only-in-America story. Turning around and saying "Oh, all we consume is some police protection" is pretty dishonest in view of that. Like they'd be fine if you transported the campus to Sierra Leone and hired good security? The only other countries developed enough to have conceivably yielded an Apple all levy higher taxes than us (VAT vs corporate income notwithstanding), and a higher regulatory burden. "Fair share" isn't so much to ask for, when you look at the competition in terms of countries.

yummyfajitas 15y ago
Why do you feel that a web of contracts with specific interface should pay the same % of profits as tax that you pay as a % of income? Note that the people who own Apple generally do pay a similar percentage - some of it in the form of corporate income, some of it as cap gains. As far as what they consume, they're based in the US, with the best technical workforce in the world. I'd bet good money that Apple's workforce is received a disproportionate amount of education outside the US. For example, the US government didn't educate Jonathan Ive. Besides which, the workforce was already charged for that and Apple is paying a wage premium to compensate for it. Since you seem to believe Apple consumes more than just police protection, please be specific about what you think they consume. Which of the major services do you believe enabled Apple to be an "only-in-America" story? Was it redistribution from the young to the old, or was it the war on Iraqis?
- jbooth 15y ago
  If you think the only benefits Apple has gotten from American society at large are police protection and a court system, I don't know what to tell you. On your side of the argument, if you say "Hey, Apple doesn't really gain anything from the wars we're fighting or the expanded security state", I'd agree and include myself in there as well. Others might disagree. But we're all in it together on the costs for that stuff, that's what being part of the same country means.
- mjwalshe 15y ago
  well apart from sporting SV for decades to make new tech for blowing up stuff that lead to the culture that produced Woz and Jobs.
taligent 15y ago
"Everything about Apple is an only-in-America story." That is so ridiculous. Maybe you need to take a deeper look at a Mac and see where much of that innovation comes from.
- cpeterso 15y ago
  And where Apple hardware is built today (i.e. not America).
- toyg 15y ago
  That makes it even worse, to be honest. They're pillaging talent and resources from across the world, and not paying their fair share anywhere.
  - barry-cotter 15y ago
    You do realise they pay all taxes they are obliged to pay in every jurisdiction they operate in, right?
    - toyg 15y ago
      Of course, but they'll pool all the profits they can in the jurisdiction that forces them to pay the lowest rate of tax or no tax at all (i.e. Caribbean tax havens), regardless of the actual source of revenue, source of talent, or production location. This is morally unacceptable, if currently legal; laws can and should be changed to account for a changed, more globalized world. If you design in California, produce in China and sell in Europe, you shouldn't be allowed to shelter your profits in Caribbean tax havens instead of giving back to the societies that made you successful in the first place. We need better treaties among countries to adequately tax large capital movements across the world. Note how the Chinese try to sidestep the problem by heavily restricting capital flow in exit. This has never been a viable policy for capital-rich countries with saturated markets, of course; but as we've been seeing since 2008, US and EU markets are not as capital-rich as we thought, after all. This doesn't mean that we should blindly follow Chinese policies, of course, but maybe a degree of restriction should be introduced.

by jbooth 15y ago

yummyfajitas 15y ago

Why do you feel that a web of contracts with specific interface should pay the same % of profits as tax that you pay as a % of income? Note that the people who own Apple generally do pay a similar percentage - some of it in the form of corporate income, some of it as cap gains. As far as what they consume, they're based in the US, with the best technical workforce in the world. I'd bet good money that Apple's workforce is received a disproportionate amount of education outside the US. For example, the US government didn't educate Jonathan Ive. Besides which, the workforce was already charged for that and Apple is paying a wage premium to compensate for it. Since you seem to believe Apple consumes more than just police protection, please be specific about what you think they consume. Which of the major services do you believe enabled Apple to be an "only-in-America" story? Was it redistribution from the young to the old, or was it the war on Iraqis?

jbooth 15y ago
If you think the only benefits Apple has gotten from American society at large are police protection and a court system, I don't know what to tell you. On your side of the argument, if you say "Hey, Apple doesn't really gain anything from the wars we're fighting or the expanded security state", I'd agree and include myself in there as well. Others might disagree. But we're all in it together on the costs for that stuff, that's what being part of the same country means.
mjwalshe 15y ago
well apart from sporting SV for decades to make new tech for blowing up stuff that lead to the culture that produced Woz and Jobs.

taligent 15y ago

"Everything about Apple is an only-in-America story." That is so ridiculous. Maybe you need to take a deeper look at a Mac and see where much of that innovation comes from.

cpeterso 15y ago
And where Apple hardware is built today (i.e. not America).
toyg 15y ago
That makes it even worse, to be honest. They're pillaging talent and resources from across the world, and not paying their fair share anywhere.
- barry-cotter 15y ago
  You do realise they pay all taxes they are obliged to pay in every jurisdiction they operate in, right?
  - toyg 15y ago
    Of course, but they'll pool all the profits they can in the jurisdiction that forces them to pay the lowest rate of tax or no tax at all (i.e. Caribbean tax havens), regardless of the actual source of revenue, source of talent, or production location. This is morally unacceptable, if currently legal; laws can and should be changed to account for a changed, more globalized world. If you design in California, produce in China and sell in Europe, you shouldn't be allowed to shelter your profits in Caribbean tax havens instead of giving back to the societies that made you successful in the first place. We need better treaties among countries to adequately tax large capital movements across the world. Note how the Chinese try to sidestep the problem by heavily restricting capital flow in exit. This has never been a viable policy for capital-rich countries with saturated markets, of course; but as we've been seeing since 2008, US and EU markets are not as capital-rich as we thought, after all. This doesn't mean that we should blindly follow Chinese policies, of course, but maybe a degree of restriction should be introduced.