4 ms·

> for their heating requirement, a normal electric plug is more than sufficient in the land of 230V, this is is a similar issue to kettles basically US uses a

> for their heating requirement, a normal electric plug is more than sufficient in the land of 230V, this is is a similar issue to kettles basically US uses a split phase system so you can combine two 120V circuits to get 240V. This is how most heavy appliances are wired.

masklinn 3y ago
Right but that means you need a special setup either way. In europe you just have a normal electric plug, nothing special.
- philwelch 3y ago
  North America has standard plugs for 240V too. They’re different from the 120V plug for the obvious reason, but it’s not a particularly special setup.
  - lazide 3y ago
    The odds a random US plug will be 240v is essentially zero, unless you’re standing next to an electric range/stove/dryer. And those plugs typically have one outlet and it’s already in use. Unless the prior owner was a welder anyway. Then you might have a few in the garage. Either way, not convenient for kettles.
    - philwelch 3y ago
      Maybe I should make the obvious reason more explicit. If you have something designed to operate on 120V and plug it into a 240V outlet, there will be safety issues. It might even catch on fire. So the two voltages have to use different outlet and plug shapes for safety reasons. An outlet is not “randomly” going to be one voltage or the other because that would be a terrible idea. And yes, the 240V outlets are set up for heavy appliances rather than small countertop appliances. Remember, we were talking about washing machines and dishwashers, and the claim that European appliances don’t need to consume hot water because they have 230V circuits. American appliances have 240V circuits and they still consume hot water so that’s not a satisfying explanation. It’s true that Americans don’t plug electric kettles into a 240V plug. There are a few reasons for that: * Americans generally prefer coffee to tea. So the tea kettle is usually a lower priority in an American household compared to a British one. * Stovetop tea kettles and microwaves are both perfectly fine at boiling water. Are they as optimal? Maybe not but it’s not a priority. (Microwaves might be just as fast actually.) * Electric kettles work totally fine on a 120V circuit anyway. I have one. Is it as fast as it would be on a 240V circuit? No, but it’s not a priority. We probably make up the time difference by having faster dishwashers and washing machines that consume hot water in addition to using 240V power.
      - lazide 3y ago
        Uh, you might want to reconsider who you’re talking to. I’ve run 40 amp 240v split phase and 3 phase in North America (permitted) for personal projects. I’m well aware. No one installs L30R/L6-30R receptacles in the US for ‘normal’ (as in used by a human for random stuff) use as standard practice, because yes - most of the time no one needs it. Maximum power for a normal 120/20 amp branch circuit is 2.4kw, and that’s 7.2kw. The most I’ve ever actually had a use for in a residential building was 50 amp @ 240v (arc gouging), but I did setup 50 amp @ 480v for a massive CNC milling machine once. And when someone does, it’s a special case. Most of Europe and Asia, they have receptacles that can handle that kind of load. And many other wiring changes. But they also don’t really use them to capacity very often either. But it is convenient to be able to run a decent welder off a normal house outlet in Germany or Singapore if you want.
        philwelch 3y ago
        > Uh, you might want to reconsider who you’re talking to. I’ve run 40 amp 240v split phase and 3 phase in North America (permitted) for personal projects. I’m well aware. Sorry about that, but I’m not sure how you expected me to know that about you or why we’re arguing about tea kettles. I think I inferred more disagreement from context than we actually have. Do we actually disagree about anything here or are we all good? At the very least I think we’re on the same page about washing machines, which was the original point of contention here. And yes, the point about welding is a good one; higher voltage standards are a lot more convenient for that.
        Symbiote 3y ago
        "Normal" high power portable devices in Europe are 2-3kW electric heaters (generally an expensive way to heat a house, but OK if you're heating a single room) and older and less efficient vacuum cleaners (2kW). Maybe also a very high spec gaming PC, which here could run (monitors and all) from a single outlet. Would tripping the breaker have been a concern at a 2000s LAN party in the USA? I have no idea. In some countries it's common to have a 400V (3 phase) socket in the garage. Excellent for car charging, but that is also OK from 230V. That is probably by far the biggest current benefit of 230V everywhere. Charge the car at a decent speed at that holiday cottage in the mountains.
  - mcbishop 3y ago
    For most people, running a 240-volt circuit requires an (expensive) electrician. In some cases, it requires drywall work. And maybe a utility service upgrade.
    - philwelch 3y ago
      American homes already have 240V circuits for large electric appliances and electric water heaters. If you want to convert one of those from gas to electric or just want an extra appliance for some reason, sure it’s going to be more expensive than just plugging it into the wall but you’re also buying a fairly large, expensive extra appliance. And many of those appliances need work done anyway: water heaters, dishwashers, and washing machines need plumbing, gas appliances need gas lines, dryers need dryer vent ducts, and ranges need range hoods which ideally also require ductwork. Besides, it’s not like European homes actually have more heavy appliances than American homes. Americans are much more likely to own clothes dryers, despite the fact that Europeans could easily just plug one into any normal outlet.
      - mcbishop 3y ago
        Points taken. I just wanted to clarify that it's more involved than swapping out the "plug".
mcv 3y ago
> US uses a split phase system so you can combine two 120V circuits to get 240V. This is how most heavy appliances are wired. So what do you do with an induction stove? For ours, we had to combine two 230V connections to get 380V.
- nkurz 3y ago
  Generally there is no option to do this in a US residence. The drop to the house coming from the transformer only provides two single phase 120V to neutral circuits, which can be combined to provide 240V. Commercial and industrial sites will often have higher voltage 3-phase available. In practice, this isn't an issue. Induction devices sold in the US for residential use simply are designed to work on 120V or 240V. The heat output for the 120V ones too limited for some purposes, but once you are up to 240V it's generally not a limiting factor.

masklinn 3y ago

Right but that means you need a special setup either way. In europe you just have a normal electric plug, nothing special.

philwelch 3y ago
North America has standard plugs for 240V too. They’re different from the 120V plug for the obvious reason, but it’s not a particularly special setup.
- lazide 3y ago
  The odds a random US plug will be 240v is essentially zero, unless you’re standing next to an electric range/stove/dryer. And those plugs typically have one outlet and it’s already in use. Unless the prior owner was a welder anyway. Then you might have a few in the garage. Either way, not convenient for kettles.
  - philwelch 3y ago
    Maybe I should make the obvious reason more explicit. If you have something designed to operate on 120V and plug it into a 240V outlet, there will be safety issues. It might even catch on fire. So the two voltages have to use different outlet and plug shapes for safety reasons. An outlet is not “randomly” going to be one voltage or the other because that would be a terrible idea. And yes, the 240V outlets are set up for heavy appliances rather than small countertop appliances. Remember, we were talking about washing machines and dishwashers, and the claim that European appliances don’t need to consume hot water because they have 230V circuits. American appliances have 240V circuits and they still consume hot water so that’s not a satisfying explanation. It’s true that Americans don’t plug electric kettles into a 240V plug. There are a few reasons for that: * Americans generally prefer coffee to tea. So the tea kettle is usually a lower priority in an American household compared to a British one. * Stovetop tea kettles and microwaves are both perfectly fine at boiling water. Are they as optimal? Maybe not but it’s not a priority. (Microwaves might be just as fast actually.) * Electric kettles work totally fine on a 120V circuit anyway. I have one. Is it as fast as it would be on a 240V circuit? No, but it’s not a priority. We probably make up the time difference by having faster dishwashers and washing machines that consume hot water in addition to using 240V power.
    - lazide 3y ago
      Uh, you might want to reconsider who you’re talking to. I’ve run 40 amp 240v split phase and 3 phase in North America (permitted) for personal projects. I’m well aware. No one installs L30R/L6-30R receptacles in the US for ‘normal’ (as in used by a human for random stuff) use as standard practice, because yes - most of the time no one needs it. Maximum power for a normal 120/20 amp branch circuit is 2.4kw, and that’s 7.2kw. The most I’ve ever actually had a use for in a residential building was 50 amp @ 240v (arc gouging), but I did setup 50 amp @ 480v for a massive CNC milling machine once. And when someone does, it’s a special case. Most of Europe and Asia, they have receptacles that can handle that kind of load. And many other wiring changes. But they also don’t really use them to capacity very often either. But it is convenient to be able to run a decent welder off a normal house outlet in Germany or Singapore if you want.
      - philwelch 3y ago
        > Uh, you might want to reconsider who you’re talking to. I’ve run 40 amp 240v split phase and 3 phase in North America (permitted) for personal projects. I’m well aware. Sorry about that, but I’m not sure how you expected me to know that about you or why we’re arguing about tea kettles. I think I inferred more disagreement from context than we actually have. Do we actually disagree about anything here or are we all good? At the very least I think we’re on the same page about washing machines, which was the original point of contention here. And yes, the point about welding is a good one; higher voltage standards are a lot more convenient for that.
      - Symbiote 3y ago
        "Normal" high power portable devices in Europe are 2-3kW electric heaters (generally an expensive way to heat a house, but OK if you're heating a single room) and older and less efficient vacuum cleaners (2kW). Maybe also a very high spec gaming PC, which here could run (monitors and all) from a single outlet. Would tripping the breaker have been a concern at a 2000s LAN party in the USA? I have no idea. In some countries it's common to have a 400V (3 phase) socket in the garage. Excellent for car charging, but that is also OK from 230V. That is probably by far the biggest current benefit of 230V everywhere. Charge the car at a decent speed at that holiday cottage in the mountains.
- mcbishop 3y ago
  For most people, running a 240-volt circuit requires an (expensive) electrician. In some cases, it requires drywall work. And maybe a utility service upgrade.
  - philwelch 3y ago
    American homes already have 240V circuits for large electric appliances and electric water heaters. If you want to convert one of those from gas to electric or just want an extra appliance for some reason, sure it’s going to be more expensive than just plugging it into the wall but you’re also buying a fairly large, expensive extra appliance. And many of those appliances need work done anyway: water heaters, dishwashers, and washing machines need plumbing, gas appliances need gas lines, dryers need dryer vent ducts, and ranges need range hoods which ideally also require ductwork. Besides, it’s not like European homes actually have more heavy appliances than American homes. Americans are much more likely to own clothes dryers, despite the fact that Europeans could easily just plug one into any normal outlet.
    - mcbishop 3y ago
      Points taken. I just wanted to clarify that it's more involved than swapping out the "plug".

mcv 3y ago

> US uses a split phase system so you can combine two 120V circuits to get 240V. This is how most heavy appliances are wired. So what do you do with an induction stove? For ours, we had to combine two 230V connections to get 380V.

nkurz 3y ago
Generally there is no option to do this in a US residence. The drop to the house coming from the transformer only provides two single phase 120V to neutral circuits, which can be combined to provide 240V. Commercial and industrial sites will often have higher voltage 3-phase available. In practice, this isn't an issue. Induction devices sold in the US for residential use simply are designed to work on 120V or 240V. The heat output for the 120V ones too limited for some purposes, but once you are up to 240V it's generally not a limiting factor.