6 ms·

If buying is not owning then piracy is not stealing.

RichardHesketh 3y ago
There’s a popular view that piracy is not theft. But in UK law at least (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/crossheading/definition-of-theft https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/crossheading/de...), although copyright infringement is a separate offence, it kind of is theft too, arguably. It would be interesting to know to what extent that’s been tested, here and elsewhere.
- PicassoCTs 3y ago
  Well, all the laws they could buy, that surely will stop a movement named after lawless ship thieves and brigands.
- tourmalinetaco 3y ago
  There is no evidence that it harms sales, as the EU found out after spending over €300,000. Actually, it leads more towards the idea that overpricing hurts legal consumption far more. And lost sales are not theft anyway, neither is copying a file. https://torrentfreak.com/eu-piracy-report-suppression-raises-questions-transparency-170922/ https://torrentfreak.com/eu-piracy-report-suppression-raises...
- blibble 3y ago
  by definition it isn't theft because you haven't deprived the owner of the original copyright infringement is a civil offence, unless done on commercial scale > It would be interesting to know to what extent that’s been tested, here and elsewhere. it would never even get that far in the UK court
  - missedthecue 3y ago
    If I stole Coca Cola's recipe, or the design files for the new Nvidia chip, it wouldn't be theft then? Because they still have the original, they've not been deprived of it. I think it would be theft and I think a jury would agree.
    - blibble 3y ago
      > If I stole Coca Cola's recipe, or the design files for the new Nvidia chip, it wouldn't be theft then? Because they still have the original, they've not been deprived of it. correct, it's not theft because it doesn't meet the definition of theft under the Theft Act this is not difficult to understand, it's spelt in crystal clear unambiguous language in the GPs post > I think it would be theft and I think a jury would agree. you can think whatever you want, but it would never reach the point of a jury because the police wouldn't charge for theft and the CPS wouldn't prosecute for it either because it isn't theft now if you compromised a computer system to get those chip designs they might try under the Computer Misuse Act, but that's a different offence and not theft
    - almatabata 3y ago
      > If I stole Coca Cola's recipe, or the design files for the new Nvidia chip, it wouldn't be theft then? If i steal something its theft tautologically. If i break into the coca cola vault and take a the physical copy of the recipe that is theft. If i hack into the coca cola IT infrastructure and copy a file that contains the recipe without deleting it, then it is not necessarily theft depending on jurisdiction.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
asylteltine 3y ago
I agree ideologically but intellectually this isn’t true. A movie ticket is a license to watch the movie. If you sneak in, would anyone say that’s legal? Piracy is the same thing. Buying a video game these days is a contract for a license to use the game. I hate it, but that’s the legal aspect
- sircastor 3y ago
  For what it’s worth, theaters see it slightly differently. A movie ticket is rental of a seat in the theater.
  - tesdinger 3y ago
    Your focusing on the unimportant aspect though, the discussion is about the licensing for watching the movie.
    - SpaghettiCthulu 3y ago
      No. You're missing the point that that is not what you are paying for when you purchase a movie ticket. You are renting the seat in the theatre.
      - tesdinger 3y ago
        The theater is absolutely passing on movie licensing costs onto its customers
- dathinab 3y ago
  > intellectually intellectually piracy is still not stealing it's causing hypothetical financial damages I say hypothetical because they are actually only there if you would have bought the game/sub/etc. if you couldn't have pirated the game. But in many case that's not the case (and in many others it is). Most commonly the actual damages are much smaller then whatever companies get away with claiming they are. And there had been studies showing that for some games piracy actually increased their sells long term. Through definitely not all games. Anyway causing financial damages != stealing, mainly on a per-case basis financial damages from actual stealing tend to hugely outweighs the ones from piracy.
k__ 3y ago
Even if it was buying, piracy would be misappropriation at best.
sashank_1509 3y ago
No, I will have to strongly disagree. Years worth of effort for hundreds of people go into a AAA Game, just like a blockbuster movie. The agreement then is, you pay somehow for the right to consume their effort. You pay directly to the game, or you pay a subscription service that then distributes its pot to the game according to their agreement, but you have to pay. That’s the social agreement. If you don’t, then you’re breaking the social agreement and you’re stealing, there’s really no justification for it. Let’s say you somehow find that you pirating does not matter in the grand scheme of things, or might indirectly increase sales. It still does not matter. You are a part of an agreement that you should honor, not break, they didn’t hire you to market the game or to improve their sales. Personally when I was a teen, I used to pirate games because my parents did not buy me any. Then I became a software developer. Now I can only sympathize for piracy if it’s for educational resources that uplifts you, kind of like Sci-hub. For games/ movies you need to think, do you deserve to consume years worth of effort that they put into it? Do you deserve to be entertained by their effort? In my eyes you only do if they willingly give it to you, which only ever happens if you buy or subscribe to a game.
- madsbuch 3y ago
  Then call it what it is: A lease or rent.
- tuhriel 3y ago
  While I also disagree with the 'memefied' version of the quote, the publishers where first to break the social contract, when they removed stuff from libraries which where 'bought'. The wording in the stores is 'buy' not 'rent'. yes they have some clauses in the 20 pages long AGBs, which makes it legally ok, but imho it's still a break of the (social) contract. So, if I 'buy' product A on platform Z and it gets removed without any money returned and they expect me to 'buy' it again on platform Y, I wouldn't have any issues pirating product A Or if I bought product B v 3.0 with an unlimited licence and they suddently stop the licence server tell me I can't use B 3.0 anymore but I can get B 5.0 as a subscripton, I'd be mad as hell. I personally have issues where the publishers suddenly alters the deal afterwards. (and tell you that you should be happy they don't alter it further...)
- 3y ago
Zambyte 3y ago
This is fun to say, but the problem with it is that unauthorized copying never was stealing.
- hackerlight 3y ago
  Depends on the definition of "stealing" and whether you consider intellectual property to be private property. Private property is a social construct and it seems you've subjectively decided to exclude intellectual property from your definition of private property. That's fine but realize that this decision is a subjective one. It is no more or less absurd that I can "own" a collection of atoms as it is that I can "own" an arrangement of bits. They are both absurd notions. But we subscribe to these ideas because they are useful.
  - NotYourLawyer 3y ago
    IP is certainly private property under the laws of pretty much every developed nation. But infringement of IP rights is not “stealing” under any laws I’m aware of.
    - missedthecue 3y ago
      If I (unauthorized) take the AutoCAD design files of something, say a next-gen semiconductor, is it theft? The law would say yes. This guy went to prison for it. https://www.justice.gov/usao-ma/pr/former-engineer-sentenced-possessing-stolen-semiconductor-trade-secret https://www.justice.gov/usao-ma/pr/former-engineer-sentenced... Of course if you just make a best effort to immitate the design of something, say a new Ferrari, you might get a lawsuit but won't go to prison. Just like immitating a piece of music, you won't go to jail, it'll be hashed out in the civil courts.
      - NotYourLawyer 3y ago
        Ok, valid point. Trade secret misappropriation is called theft sometimes. I was thinking more of patents, copyrights, and trademarks.
s1artibartfast 3y ago
Those are empty words and intentionally obtuse words. It obviously depends on what you are buying.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
palata 3y ago
And training LLMs on material one does not own is not stealing either, apparently :-).

There’s a popular view that piracy is not theft. But in UK law at least (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/crossheading/definition-of-theft https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/crossheading/de...), although copyright infringement is a separate offence, it kind of is theft too, arguably. It would be interesting to know to what extent that’s been tested, here and elsewhere.

PicassoCTs 3y ago
Well, all the laws they could buy, that surely will stop a movement named after lawless ship thieves and brigands.
tourmalinetaco 3y ago
There is no evidence that it harms sales, as the EU found out after spending over €300,000. Actually, it leads more towards the idea that overpricing hurts legal consumption far more. And lost sales are not theft anyway, neither is copying a file. https://torrentfreak.com/eu-piracy-report-suppression-raises-questions-transparency-170922/ https://torrentfreak.com/eu-piracy-report-suppression-raises...
blibble 3y ago
by definition it isn't theft because you haven't deprived the owner of the original copyright infringement is a civil offence, unless done on commercial scale > It would be interesting to know to what extent that’s been tested, here and elsewhere. it would never even get that far in the UK court
- missedthecue 3y ago
  If I stole Coca Cola's recipe, or the design files for the new Nvidia chip, it wouldn't be theft then? Because they still have the original, they've not been deprived of it. I think it would be theft and I think a jury would agree.
  - blibble 3y ago
    > If I stole Coca Cola's recipe, or the design files for the new Nvidia chip, it wouldn't be theft then? Because they still have the original, they've not been deprived of it. correct, it's not theft because it doesn't meet the definition of theft under the Theft Act this is not difficult to understand, it's spelt in crystal clear unambiguous language in the GPs post > I think it would be theft and I think a jury would agree. you can think whatever you want, but it would never reach the point of a jury because the police wouldn't charge for theft and the CPS wouldn't prosecute for it either because it isn't theft now if you compromised a computer system to get those chip designs they might try under the Computer Misuse Act, but that's a different offence and not theft
  - almatabata 3y ago
    > If I stole Coca Cola's recipe, or the design files for the new Nvidia chip, it wouldn't be theft then? If i steal something its theft tautologically. If i break into the coca cola vault and take a the physical copy of the recipe that is theft. If i hack into the coca cola IT infrastructure and copy a file that contains the recipe without deleting it, then it is not necessarily theft depending on jurisdiction.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

asylteltine 3y ago

I agree ideologically but intellectually this isn’t true. A movie ticket is a license to watch the movie. If you sneak in, would anyone say that’s legal? Piracy is the same thing. Buying a video game these days is a contract for a license to use the game. I hate it, but that’s the legal aspect

sircastor 3y ago
For what it’s worth, theaters see it slightly differently. A movie ticket is rental of a seat in the theater.
- tesdinger 3y ago
  Your focusing on the unimportant aspect though, the discussion is about the licensing for watching the movie.
  - SpaghettiCthulu 3y ago
    No. You're missing the point that that is not what you are paying for when you purchase a movie ticket. You are renting the seat in the theatre.
    - tesdinger 3y ago
      The theater is absolutely passing on movie licensing costs onto its customers
dathinab 3y ago
> intellectually intellectually piracy is still not stealing it's causing hypothetical financial damages I say hypothetical because they are actually only there if you would have bought the game/sub/etc. if you couldn't have pirated the game. But in many case that's not the case (and in many others it is). Most commonly the actual damages are much smaller then whatever companies get away with claiming they are. And there had been studies showing that for some games piracy actually increased their sells long term. Through definitely not all games. Anyway causing financial damages != stealing, mainly on a per-case basis financial damages from actual stealing tend to hugely outweighs the ones from piracy.

k__ 3y ago

Even if it was buying, piracy would be misappropriation at best.

sashank_1509 3y ago

No, I will have to strongly disagree. Years worth of effort for hundreds of people go into a AAA Game, just like a blockbuster movie. The agreement then is, you pay somehow for the right to consume their effort. You pay directly to the game, or you pay a subscription service that then distributes its pot to the game according to their agreement, but you have to pay. That’s the social agreement. If you don’t, then you’re breaking the social agreement and you’re stealing, there’s really no justification for it. Let’s say you somehow find that you pirating does not matter in the grand scheme of things, or might indirectly increase sales. It still does not matter. You are a part of an agreement that you should honor, not break, they didn’t hire you to market the game or to improve their sales. Personally when I was a teen, I used to pirate games because my parents did not buy me any. Then I became a software developer. Now I can only sympathize for piracy if it’s for educational resources that uplifts you, kind of like Sci-hub. For games/ movies you need to think, do you deserve to consume years worth of effort that they put into it? Do you deserve to be entertained by their effort? In my eyes you only do if they willingly give it to you, which only ever happens if you buy or subscribe to a game.

madsbuch 3y ago
Then call it what it is: A lease or rent.
tuhriel 3y ago
While I also disagree with the 'memefied' version of the quote, the publishers where first to break the social contract, when they removed stuff from libraries which where 'bought'. The wording in the stores is 'buy' not 'rent'. yes they have some clauses in the 20 pages long AGBs, which makes it legally ok, but imho it's still a break of the (social) contract. So, if I 'buy' product A on platform Z and it gets removed without any money returned and they expect me to 'buy' it again on platform Y, I wouldn't have any issues pirating product A Or if I bought product B v 3.0 with an unlimited licence and they suddently stop the licence server tell me I can't use B 3.0 anymore but I can get B 5.0 as a subscripton, I'd be mad as hell. I personally have issues where the publishers suddenly alters the deal afterwards. (and tell you that you should be happy they don't alter it further...)
3y ago

Zambyte 3y ago

This is fun to say, but the problem with it is that unauthorized copying never was stealing.

hackerlight 3y ago
Depends on the definition of "stealing" and whether you consider intellectual property to be private property. Private property is a social construct and it seems you've subjectively decided to exclude intellectual property from your definition of private property. That's fine but realize that this decision is a subjective one. It is no more or less absurd that I can "own" a collection of atoms as it is that I can "own" an arrangement of bits. They are both absurd notions. But we subscribe to these ideas because they are useful.
- NotYourLawyer 3y ago
  IP is certainly private property under the laws of pretty much every developed nation. But infringement of IP rights is not “stealing” under any laws I’m aware of.
  - missedthecue 3y ago
    If I (unauthorized) take the AutoCAD design files of something, say a next-gen semiconductor, is it theft? The law would say yes. This guy went to prison for it. https://www.justice.gov/usao-ma/pr/former-engineer-sentenced-possessing-stolen-semiconductor-trade-secret https://www.justice.gov/usao-ma/pr/former-engineer-sentenced... Of course if you just make a best effort to immitate the design of something, say a new Ferrari, you might get a lawsuit but won't go to prison. Just like immitating a piece of music, you won't go to jail, it'll be hashed out in the civil courts.
    - NotYourLawyer 3y ago
      Ok, valid point. Trade secret misappropriation is called theft sometimes. I was thinking more of patents, copyrights, and trademarks.

s1artibartfast 3y ago

Those are empty words and intentionally obtuse words. It obviously depends on what you are buying.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

palata 3y ago

And training LLMs on material one does not own is not stealing either, apparently :-).