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I'll add: "...because we're super rich and can hire ultra clever accountants to abuse loopholes in your tax laws that were put in place by politicians paid by

I'll add: "...because we're super rich and can hire ultra clever accountants to abuse loopholes in your tax laws that were put in place by politicians paid by other super rich corporations specifically to get away with paying less taxes thereby grossly violating the trust of the American public and the spirit of taxation in general." Are you still ok with that?

jimmyvanhalen 14y ago
if you're the CEO/CFO and you're not looking for every legal way to maximize shareholder value, then you're not doing your job.
- eagsalazar 14y ago
  What a bizarre and unfortunate opinion. Too bad so many people actually believe that is the way it should be.
  - zethraeus 14y ago
    It's not an opinion, it's a fact. The opinion question is whether or not that's a moral job. Either way, it's still the job.
  - eagsalazar 14y ago
    Why do you say that? The CEO and CFO work for and are judged by the board and whatever standards they care to use. The board in turn is free to make decisions independent of shareholder financial interests. There is nothing intrisically true about your statement about CEO/CFO only optimizing for maximum financial gain. The real issue is that most people think they are legally bound to always make the optimal financial move even if that means being immoral or unethical. Even worse is that many people think that doing so has a certain morality of its own, which IMO is completely, bizarro, nuts. http://www.directorship.com/stout-shareholders-as-owners/ http://www.directorship.com/stout-shareholders-as-owners/ http://hbr.org/2010/04/the-myth-of-shareholder-capitalism/ar/1 http://hbr.org/2010/04/the-myth-of-shareholder-capitalism/ar...
    - jimmyvanhalen 14y ago
      what is immoral or unethical in paying less taxes? The corporate and personal tax rates in Germany and Belgium are higher than the US. Are Germans or Belgians more moral or ethical than Americans? Apple pays billions in taxes, will pay billions in dividends to shareholders (which goes to retirement/pension funds, universities, charities, etc.), employs thousands (the employees pay taxes), donates to charity, etc. They created an Apple ecosystem that spurred thousands of developers and start-ups to build apps, etc. which in turn created more jobs, taxes, etc. Are those not ethical or moral to you?
      - AlisdairO 14y ago
        I'd absolutely argue that it's immoral to take advantage of loopholes that break the clear intended amount of taxation that society asks of you. If a society decides it wants to levy less tax, that's rather different (and fair enough). Equally, I think it's fairly naive to expect corporations to be moral, since there's very little incentive for them to be so - I merely respect those that are more.
        jimmyvanhalen 14y ago
        s/loophole/tax law s/society/government morality is not defined by how much taxes you pay the government. who's immoral? The company that pays less taxes and returns the money to the shareholders,creates jobs, donates to charity, etc. or big government that waste tax payers money by spending it on useless government programs and wars?
        AlisdairO 14y ago
        If you can't tell the difference between a loophole and the intent of a law, I don't really know what to say. Government is part of (and, indeed, defined by) society. I can only imagine that your views on the uselessness of government programs are shaped by the US' admittedly poor example, but that doesn't mean that governments are inherently incapable.
      - 14y ago
  - jimmyvanhalen 14y ago
    what they're doing is legal so what's you're problem? Apple pays billions in taxes, pays dividends to shareholders, employs thousands, etc. if you're not happy with that, maybe you should move to countries with higher corporate tax rates, i'm sure they have a better/bigger economy than the US (they don't, take a good guess why.).
    - eagsalazar 14y ago
      Because the US has a population of 400 million? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_...
      - jimmyvanhalen 14y ago
        How about China and India.
        corin_ 14y ago
        Unless the only difference you can think of between China/India and the US is their tax levels then I'm not sure what your point is.
- mun2mun 14y ago
  By the same logic Ballmer is doing right thing by collecting tax from every Android devices out there.
  - gaius 14y ago
    If the money is due, then it must be paid. Presumably Google is getting some value too?
    - mun2mun 14y ago
      So all Microsoft bashing happened here for this tax collection news is irrelevant. And those who bashed Microsoft there are some narrow minded people who doesn't get the Big Picture?
      - jimmyvanhalen 14y ago
        your favorite ad company is also doing the same thing. Google 2.4% Rate Shows How $60 Billion Lost to Tax Loopholes Google Inc. cut its taxes by $3.1 billion in the last three years using a technique that moves most of its foreign profits through Ireland and the Netherlands to Bermuda. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-10-21/google-2-4-rate-shows-how-60-billion-u-s-revenue-lost-to-tax-loopholes.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-10-21/google-2-4-rate-sho...
        gaius 14y ago
        They dodge taxes here in the UK too. While benefiting from our infrastructure and educated workforce.
fleitz 14y ago
The spirit of taxation? This isn't a spiritual matter we're not tithing, the government sets rules for tax, and Apple chooses to follow them. No one wants to pay extra tax, not even those people who want higher taxes. Case in point, how much extra tax did you pay last year? They pay what they are required by law. Higher tax advocates end up wanting to see insane basic rates and those that want lower taxes propose exemptions. This is the fundamental negotiation that occurs when politicians from both sides of the table sit down. The idea is to satisfy those that want to see high marginal rates and those that don't want to pay that much tax. Hightax Hilda gets to go back to her constituents and say "Look we have a 35% tax on corporations". Lowtax Lenny gets to go back to his constituents and say "Look you're not going to pay very much tax as long as you hire some lawyers and accountants." If Apple got to set the tax code it would probably be a lower rate that was simpler to administer so they didn't have to hire so many lawyers and accountants.
taligent 14y ago
Have you EVER taken a tax deduction in your life ? If so. Then you are exploiting a "loophole" and are a hypocrite.

jimmyvanhalen 14y ago

if you're the CEO/CFO and you're not looking for every legal way to maximize shareholder value, then you're not doing your job.

eagsalazar 14y ago
What a bizarre and unfortunate opinion. Too bad so many people actually believe that is the way it should be.
- zethraeus 14y ago
  It's not an opinion, it's a fact. The opinion question is whether or not that's a moral job. Either way, it's still the job.
- eagsalazar 14y ago
  Why do you say that? The CEO and CFO work for and are judged by the board and whatever standards they care to use. The board in turn is free to make decisions independent of shareholder financial interests. There is nothing intrisically true about your statement about CEO/CFO only optimizing for maximum financial gain. The real issue is that most people think they are legally bound to always make the optimal financial move even if that means being immoral or unethical. Even worse is that many people think that doing so has a certain morality of its own, which IMO is completely, bizarro, nuts. http://www.directorship.com/stout-shareholders-as-owners/ http://www.directorship.com/stout-shareholders-as-owners/ http://hbr.org/2010/04/the-myth-of-shareholder-capitalism/ar/1 http://hbr.org/2010/04/the-myth-of-shareholder-capitalism/ar...
  - jimmyvanhalen 14y ago
    what is immoral or unethical in paying less taxes? The corporate and personal tax rates in Germany and Belgium are higher than the US. Are Germans or Belgians more moral or ethical than Americans? Apple pays billions in taxes, will pay billions in dividends to shareholders (which goes to retirement/pension funds, universities, charities, etc.), employs thousands (the employees pay taxes), donates to charity, etc. They created an Apple ecosystem that spurred thousands of developers and start-ups to build apps, etc. which in turn created more jobs, taxes, etc. Are those not ethical or moral to you?
    - AlisdairO 14y ago
      I'd absolutely argue that it's immoral to take advantage of loopholes that break the clear intended amount of taxation that society asks of you. If a society decides it wants to levy less tax, that's rather different (and fair enough). Equally, I think it's fairly naive to expect corporations to be moral, since there's very little incentive for them to be so - I merely respect those that are more.
      - jimmyvanhalen 14y ago
        s/loophole/tax law s/society/government morality is not defined by how much taxes you pay the government. who's immoral? The company that pays less taxes and returns the money to the shareholders,creates jobs, donates to charity, etc. or big government that waste tax payers money by spending it on useless government programs and wars?
        AlisdairO 14y ago
        If you can't tell the difference between a loophole and the intent of a law, I don't really know what to say. Government is part of (and, indeed, defined by) society. I can only imagine that your views on the uselessness of government programs are shaped by the US' admittedly poor example, but that doesn't mean that governments are inherently incapable.
    - 14y ago
- jimmyvanhalen 14y ago
  what they're doing is legal so what's you're problem? Apple pays billions in taxes, pays dividends to shareholders, employs thousands, etc. if you're not happy with that, maybe you should move to countries with higher corporate tax rates, i'm sure they have a better/bigger economy than the US (they don't, take a good guess why.).
  - eagsalazar 14y ago
    Because the US has a population of 400 million? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_...
    - jimmyvanhalen 14y ago
      How about China and India.
      - corin_ 14y ago
        Unless the only difference you can think of between China/India and the US is their tax levels then I'm not sure what your point is.
mun2mun 14y ago
By the same logic Ballmer is doing right thing by collecting tax from every Android devices out there.
- gaius 14y ago
  If the money is due, then it must be paid. Presumably Google is getting some value too?
  - mun2mun 14y ago
    So all Microsoft bashing happened here for this tax collection news is irrelevant. And those who bashed Microsoft there are some narrow minded people who doesn't get the Big Picture?
    - jimmyvanhalen 14y ago
      your favorite ad company is also doing the same thing. Google 2.4% Rate Shows How $60 Billion Lost to Tax Loopholes Google Inc. cut its taxes by $3.1 billion in the last three years using a technique that moves most of its foreign profits through Ireland and the Netherlands to Bermuda. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-10-21/google-2-4-rate-shows-how-60-billion-u-s-revenue-lost-to-tax-loopholes.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-10-21/google-2-4-rate-sho...
      - gaius 14y ago
        They dodge taxes here in the UK too. While benefiting from our infrastructure and educated workforce.

fleitz 14y ago

The spirit of taxation? This isn't a spiritual matter we're not tithing, the government sets rules for tax, and Apple chooses to follow them. No one wants to pay extra tax, not even those people who want higher taxes. Case in point, how much extra tax did you pay last year? They pay what they are required by law. Higher tax advocates end up wanting to see insane basic rates and those that want lower taxes propose exemptions. This is the fundamental negotiation that occurs when politicians from both sides of the table sit down. The idea is to satisfy those that want to see high marginal rates and those that don't want to pay that much tax. Hightax Hilda gets to go back to her constituents and say "Look we have a 35% tax on corporations". Lowtax Lenny gets to go back to his constituents and say "Look you're not going to pay very much tax as long as you hire some lawyers and accountants." If Apple got to set the tax code it would probably be a lower rate that was simpler to administer so they didn't have to hire so many lawyers and accountants.

taligent 14y ago

Have you EVER taken a tax deduction in your life ? If so. Then you are exploiting a "loophole" and are a hypocrite.