4 ms·
Overly aggressive denials of simple requests ("please use another word") just make me wonder why you are so upset about it? Blacklist/whitelist DO reinforce the
by akie 3y ago
Overly aggressive denials of simple requests ("please use another word") just make me wonder why you are so upset about it? Blacklist/whitelist DO reinforce the notion that black = bad and white = good, so what's the deal with using a different word? I truly don't understand why people would get upset by simple requests like that.
- meepmorp 3y agoI think Niemöller said it best: > First they came for the n-word...
- Fbnkigffb66tfbj 3y agoBecause requests like that are just the tip of the iceberg. I think it's a reasonable response to resist groups who are trying to aggressively effect cultural change in ways with which I disagree. And as the other commentor said, I won't complain about whatever terminology you use when you write or speak, but I expect the same respect in return.
- meepmorp 3y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39066948 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39066948
- lwhi 3y agoYou'll hide behind a throwaway account though. If you disagree with making the world a better place in small ways that don't actually affect you, I have no time for you.
- Snow_Falls 3y agoSlippery slope arguments are considered a fallacy for a reason.
- SpaghettiCthulu 3y agoCalling slippery slope arguments a fallacy is like saying you should be allowed to shoot someone because there's only a high chance they'll die.
- vsnf 3y agoThe counterpoint is why spend so much effort language policing others words? There is no need to force this change, and it just causes needless consternation. Use allowlist if you must but don’t force your change on me for the sake of your own sensibilities.
- lwhi 3y agoThere's a logical reason for this. Our language was formed at a time where racism was more endemic. We now live in a society that endeavours to be less racist; but language hasn't caught up. .. what's your argument for not doing this?
- Hamuko 3y agoDoesn't the term "blacklist" date back to medieval England, where it referred to the black book where the names of sinners were added?
- lwhi 3y agoUltimately, we can only guess. The fact that there are more negative associations with 'black' in our language than 'white' seems more of a feature than a coincidence.
- trealira 3y agoYou should read the book Black: The History of a Color by Michel Pastoureau. He analyzes the history of symbolism using the color black in Europe.
- lwhi 3y agoLooks interesting! I guess I still figure small things we can do to help redress the balance in terms of celebrating (rather than disparaging) blackness are worthwhile.
- vsnf 3y ago
- aaron695 3y ago[dead]
- perihelions 3y ago- "Blacklist/whitelist DO reinforce the notion that black = bad and white = good" I'll bite. What's wrong with perpetuating the notion that the color black is evil and ruinous? Would humanity be kinder if we'd mourn our dead wearing colors other than black? (Would it be prosocial to start educating people about this issue at funerals?) Surely that's a much bigger concern than obscure jargon usage like "blacklist". If (accepting the premise for discussion) semantic overloading the word "black" actually harms people, then, I think associating black with people literally-dying should harm far more people, more seriously, than server configuration files. If we're serious about this—if we mean what we say—we should prioritize the high-emotional-impact stuff, because that's logically where the heaviest sociological damage comes from. Death, disease, devils—all these classic associations. Not some anodyne computer pass/deny lists. Let's start talking White Sabbaths, and Light Satanic Mills. (I think I agree with the intention behind these kinds of language ideas; I just don't think they can lead anywhere constructive).
- lwhi 3y agoI appreciate your line of thinking. Yes some societies celebrate death and wear bright colours to 'mourn'. And yes, there are benefits associated. As to whether this is more or less of a concern than language usage; I'd argue the biggest problem with society today is absolutism. More than one thing can be—and usually is—true at any one time. We rarely need to decide one or other .. and using this as a line of argument doesn't amount to much. I think there's a simple way these language ideas can benefit society. Allowing young people with darker skin to grow up in a society that celebrates, rather than disparages blackness.
- perihelions 3y ago- "Allowing young people with darker skin to grow up in a society that celebrates, rather than disparages blackness." The link you're making here is something I don't understand. If I'm black, and I'm at a funeral and everyone is wearing the color black, am I being disparaged? Or if I'm reading some code and the comment's talking about "blacklists"? Is that subjectively disparaging? Is that something I'd even notice at all, consciously or not? I'm unreasonably confident the answer is a universal "no". For the same reason that as I'm writing this HN comment, at no point has imagery of mothers and fathers crossed my mind—even though the word "parent" is right there in the commenting toolbar*. Is it different for other people? *( parent | context | edit | delete, etc.)
- malermeister 3y agoThe term blacklist comes from the term black book, which originated in the 1400s as a reference to "a list of people who had committed crimes or fallen out of favor with leaders". It is called that because King Henry VIII used a literal black book. Not everything is about skin color. Not everything is about American racial dynamics. Stop projecting your issues on everything.
- lwhi 3y agoThe black book was basically an accounting book. Stop twisting history to suit a narrative you'd like to be true.
- malermeister 3y agoHow is that twisting history? It being an accounting book fits with the definition of blacklist.
- lwhi 3y agoBecause keeping accounts isn't the same as keeping track of 'bad people'.
- malermeister 3y agoWho said anything about bad people?
- lwhi 3y agoYou're talking about people who have committed crimes or fallen out of favour. You are!