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I think maybe because it seems paradoxical that someone would work on an open source project, giving away their time for free for the good of society, and yet b

I think maybe because it seems paradoxical that someone would work on an open source project, giving away their time for free for the good of society, and yet be selfish to the point of being a murderer. As an open source developer myself, I don't understand how it's possible. Why would you give away your labor for free if you don't feel empathy towards others? My general level of empathy for people I don't know has declined significantly over the past decade and my open source contributions have also declined in line with that. I just don't see the point anymore. I met some very good people through open source but, overall, the experience has taught me that most people on earth range from neutral to horrible. Open source probably represents the best kind of environment to meet the best of humanity. The smartest of the good people... But it's still disappointing.

lelanthran 3y ago
It's not about selflessness or empathy, it's about being unable to control ones emotion. We all get mad at our spouses, but we don't kill em
- jongjong 3y ago
  Still weird how someone who can't control their emotions can spend hours sitting calmly in front of a debugger while coding over many years. I feel like developers have exceptional self control compared to most people. Personally I still feel empathy towards people even when I'm angry at them. If rational people act like complete assholes to me, I start thinking that maybe they were molested or something really nasty must have happened to them.
  - pgeorgi 3y ago
    The debugger is a relatively simple environment: you have a program, you have inputs, and one of these leads to weird behavior. When you encounter people, they might be in a bad mood for a thousand reasons you can't know about and that you can't inspect like you can in "computer + program + data", leash out at you (verbally) for no discernable reason at all (and that they themselves may not even be aware of) When you never learned about that messiness of a system as complex as people, it can feel arbitrary and hostile. If you're the type who needs method and order to feel safe, computers are wonderful, people much less so.
    - lazide 3y ago
      Additionally, the degree of emotional manipulation and repressed-trauma-triggering things that happen during a bad divorce (or even just a good marriage) with young kids is truly staggering. It’s frankly more shocking how many people survive it.
  - mewpmewp2 3y ago
    > Still weird how someone who can't control their emotions can spend hours sitting calmly in front of a debugger while coding over many years. I feel like developers have exceptional self control compared to most people. This can just feel stimulating, immersing and captivating, so self control wouldn't be needed in the first place. An Open Source project is likely something that you are naturally very interested in so it makes sense a person would be captivated by that. I get frustrated when I have to work on projects that I don't care about - e.g. I work on them in order to make money - but I never get frustrated about my own initiatives, side projects, etc. I don't have problems controlling my emotions otherwise, but I could definitely see someone being captivated by a project enough, but at the same time lose control when talking to people. And Open Source may not be just empathy, it could just be literal passion for the project and the idea itself. In the end I think the frustration is caused by external pressure and this feeling of lack of control or ability to influence things. If you are working on your own things, you have enough power to choose the tech and circumstances to not get frustrated.
  - gumballindie 3y ago
    I think spending hours calmly in front of a debugger is the reason programmers become angry at people. Stress builds up and needs to be released somewhere. What I learned over time is that it’s better to get angry at the debugger and be nice to people. Not a day goes by without cursing that hecking tool that does whatever the heck it wants again, but I smile at my neighbours and try to help whenever I can. I also use HN as a means to let some of my craziest thoughts run wild, so I wouldnt have to torment those around me with them. Programmers are humans and humans rely on emotion. Got to control the flow and pressure somehow.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - dotancohen 3y ago
    > Still weird how someone who can't control their emotions can spend hours sitting calmly in front of a debugger while coding over many years. I feel like developers have exceptional self control compared to most people. If you think that the debugger is frustrating, you've never been married.
- blablabla123 3y ago
  From what I have read many murders happen by "normal" people - no psychopathy or anything is necessary. And a big problem seems to be rigidity in thought. While I agree that controlling emotions is essential, gracefully dealing with them in the first place is also very important. Emotional outbursts seem like singular events while in reality they are build-ups that happen over long stretches of time. Maybe a more intuitive example is amok runs at schools. Counter-intuitively these are usually done by people who seem calm - cholerics are less likely to do amok runs. FWIW reading also through the Wikipedia page, there was already a restraining order a year before.
CoastalCoder 3y ago
> My general level of empathy for people I don't know has declined significantly over the past decade and my open source contributions have also declined in line with that. Interestingly, mine has gone up. The more personal faults and failures I see in myself (and the list is extensive), the more empathy I have for other persons' imperfections.
- jongjong 3y ago
  I'm probably becoming more selfish so I guess we'll meet half way. You need to be selfish to survive in this world. I wish I had gone in the other direction. Being too generous with your time sucks bad.
armchairhacker 3y ago
> My general level of empathy for people I don't know has declined significantly over the past decade and my open source contributions have also declined in line with that. I just don't see the point anymore. This kind of cynicism is self-fulfilling, though I’m sure you’re already aware. Selflessness at its core is doing something for others not expecting anything in return. But I think true selfless acts are rare, because you need motivation to do anything, and “not getting anything in return” is zero motivation. Especially if you filter selfless acts towards family and close friends. But I think there are still benefits in contributing to open-source and being “selfless” to strangers. Altruism gets others to become less cynical and more selfless themselves, reversing the apathy feedback loop. Open-source in particular also improves your resume and gives you connections, and makes you a better programmer so you do your job which you get paid for faster and easier. Ultimately, I think the issue is that people need to focus on themselves before they do anything remotely selfless. My impression is that most people help others, but only after they help themselves to whatever their “fulfillment” level is; and while some people never feel fulfilled, most people’s level is relatively sane. Except the current economy and worldview is making a lot of people struggle, and the internet and social media (self-exposure and exposure to others) is making a lot of people guarded.
dotancohen 3y ago
Empathy for people does not preclude apathy for a person.

lelanthran 3y ago

It's not about selflessness or empathy, it's about being unable to control ones emotion. We all get mad at our spouses, but we don't kill em

jongjong 3y ago
Still weird how someone who can't control their emotions can spend hours sitting calmly in front of a debugger while coding over many years. I feel like developers have exceptional self control compared to most people. Personally I still feel empathy towards people even when I'm angry at them. If rational people act like complete assholes to me, I start thinking that maybe they were molested or something really nasty must have happened to them.
- pgeorgi 3y ago
  The debugger is a relatively simple environment: you have a program, you have inputs, and one of these leads to weird behavior. When you encounter people, they might be in a bad mood for a thousand reasons you can't know about and that you can't inspect like you can in "computer + program + data", leash out at you (verbally) for no discernable reason at all (and that they themselves may not even be aware of) When you never learned about that messiness of a system as complex as people, it can feel arbitrary and hostile. If you're the type who needs method and order to feel safe, computers are wonderful, people much less so.
  - lazide 3y ago
    Additionally, the degree of emotional manipulation and repressed-trauma-triggering things that happen during a bad divorce (or even just a good marriage) with young kids is truly staggering. It’s frankly more shocking how many people survive it.
- mewpmewp2 3y ago
  > Still weird how someone who can't control their emotions can spend hours sitting calmly in front of a debugger while coding over many years. I feel like developers have exceptional self control compared to most people. This can just feel stimulating, immersing and captivating, so self control wouldn't be needed in the first place. An Open Source project is likely something that you are naturally very interested in so it makes sense a person would be captivated by that. I get frustrated when I have to work on projects that I don't care about - e.g. I work on them in order to make money - but I never get frustrated about my own initiatives, side projects, etc. I don't have problems controlling my emotions otherwise, but I could definitely see someone being captivated by a project enough, but at the same time lose control when talking to people. And Open Source may not be just empathy, it could just be literal passion for the project and the idea itself. In the end I think the frustration is caused by external pressure and this feeling of lack of control or ability to influence things. If you are working on your own things, you have enough power to choose the tech and circumstances to not get frustrated.
- gumballindie 3y ago
  I think spending hours calmly in front of a debugger is the reason programmers become angry at people. Stress builds up and needs to be released somewhere. What I learned over time is that it’s better to get angry at the debugger and be nice to people. Not a day goes by without cursing that hecking tool that does whatever the heck it wants again, but I smile at my neighbours and try to help whenever I can. I also use HN as a means to let some of my craziest thoughts run wild, so I wouldnt have to torment those around me with them. Programmers are humans and humans rely on emotion. Got to control the flow and pressure somehow.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- dotancohen 3y ago
  > Still weird how someone who can't control their emotions can spend hours sitting calmly in front of a debugger while coding over many years. I feel like developers have exceptional self control compared to most people. If you think that the debugger is frustrating, you've never been married.
blablabla123 3y ago
From what I have read many murders happen by "normal" people - no psychopathy or anything is necessary. And a big problem seems to be rigidity in thought. While I agree that controlling emotions is essential, gracefully dealing with them in the first place is also very important. Emotional outbursts seem like singular events while in reality they are build-ups that happen over long stretches of time. Maybe a more intuitive example is amok runs at schools. Counter-intuitively these are usually done by people who seem calm - cholerics are less likely to do amok runs. FWIW reading also through the Wikipedia page, there was already a restraining order a year before.

CoastalCoder 3y ago

> My general level of empathy for people I don't know has declined significantly over the past decade and my open source contributions have also declined in line with that. Interestingly, mine has gone up. The more personal faults and failures I see in myself (and the list is extensive), the more empathy I have for other persons' imperfections.

jongjong 3y ago
I'm probably becoming more selfish so I guess we'll meet half way. You need to be selfish to survive in this world. I wish I had gone in the other direction. Being too generous with your time sucks bad.

armchairhacker 3y ago

> My general level of empathy for people I don't know has declined significantly over the past decade and my open source contributions have also declined in line with that. I just don't see the point anymore. This kind of cynicism is self-fulfilling, though I’m sure you’re already aware. Selflessness at its core is doing something for others not expecting anything in return. But I think true selfless acts are rare, because you need motivation to do anything, and “not getting anything in return” is zero motivation. Especially if you filter selfless acts towards family and close friends. But I think there are still benefits in contributing to open-source and being “selfless” to strangers. Altruism gets others to become less cynical and more selfless themselves, reversing the apathy feedback loop. Open-source in particular also improves your resume and gives you connections, and makes you a better programmer so you do your job which you get paid for faster and easier. Ultimately, I think the issue is that people need to focus on themselves before they do anything remotely selfless. My impression is that most people help others, but only after they help themselves to whatever their “fulfillment” level is; and while some people never feel fulfilled, most people’s level is relatively sane. Except the current economy and worldview is making a lot of people struggle, and the internet and social media (self-exposure and exposure to others) is making a lot of people guarded.

dotancohen 3y ago

Empathy for people does not preclude apathy for a person.