4 ms·

In Praise of Difficult Children (2009)

61 points by yamrzou 3y ago

psynister 3y ago
I love this. It beautifully captures the inner conflict of adolescence and the quest for self-discovery. It's easy to forget how hard that time of life can be and how in order to truly understand ourselves, we must explore the boundaries of our beliefs and reconsider once closely held ideals. It's a messy journey, but it's the only path to find our authentic selves.
- leetrout 3y ago
  Im 39 and that is still true for me today. In my career. In my marriage. As a parent.
  - silasdavis 3y ago
    An incomprehensible mess
    - leetrout 3y ago
      clears throat A _beautiful_ mess
paulryanrogers 3y ago
> You have to be bad in order to discover what kind of good you want to be (or are able to be). I find this hard to believe. Somethings may be difficult to learn without firsthand experience. Though I'm not convinced this is the same for everyone or that it applies to being 'bad'.
- chefandy 3y ago
  They’re using the word “bad” as shorthand for deviance, because people often view all deviance as bad. I can’t imagine someone going through adolescence without deviating from their own or other people’s expectations and learning something from it— be it about life, themselves, their relationships, or even deviance itself. However, I obviously can’t see into other peoples minds, and my experience was far more deviant than most, so it’s not a representative point of comparison. I do think testing boundaries by defying rules and expectations, even in pretty benign ways, is a pretty normal part of adolescence, and I think by labeling that “bad” the author was trying to elicit a similar response: “well if it’s beneficial, is it truly bad?”
- wizerdrobe 3y ago
  Some folks are able to listen to an authority figure and follow through with what is expected no problem. Some folks might not trust those authority figures and their advice. For those, doing wrong and discovering you don’t like it is a hard won life lesson. Along a similar line, I’ve heard it say that if you consider yourself a peaceful person but are not actually capable of great violence, then are you actually peaceful or simply harmless? If you’re not capable of doing wrong perhaos you’re not good, simply neutral “robot” entity confined to your programming.
  - thanhhaimai 3y ago
    > Along a similar line, I’ve heard it say that if you consider yourself a peaceful person but are not actually capable of great violence, then are you actually peaceful or simply harmless? Why not both peaceful and harmless (for the moment)? This is a function of time. I don't think it's possible to make that statement without supplying the time parameter. Also, I don't think peaceful people are not capable of great violence. It's about choice. I'm capable of violence, but I choose to not use that capability.
    - beebeepka 3y ago
      It's not simply a choice. I know that I am capable of terrible things, if pushed. I know because I've done plenty of stuff I am not proud of. Avoiding guilt, or reprisals, doesn't make me "good". All this reminded me of this fantastic Stargate SG-1 episode: https://stargate.fandom.com/wiki/Absolute_Power https://stargate.fandom.com/wiki/Absolute_Power
  - noduerme 3y ago
    I don't think there's such a thing as a human incapable of violence, given the right situation. Check out the reaction of every other mammal on the planet when cornered in a life-threatening situation. Many are incapable of effective violence, but as a last resort it's hardwired. Being a peaceful person on a daily basis is a measure of how socialized you are and how much negotiation and compromise you're capable of, but that in turn is a measure of your ability to evaluate risk and threat in a sane, socialized way. Non-peaceful people are in some ways reacting to everything as if it were a threat to their lives. Harmlessness and peaceability are orthogonal to each other. One can be violent and harmless just as easily as peaceable and dangerous.
- ChainOfFools 3y ago
  Being bad, in its most salient forms, has a greater power than being good to jolt you out of a complacent life lived around the question how, and thereby make you consider the question why instead.
elevatedastalt 3y ago
> You have to be bad in order to discover what kind of good you want to be (or are able to be). Sounds like one of those pseudo-profound woo statements. Many people manage being perfect good, well-adjusted humans without going through a bout of "being bad".
- dadoomer 3y ago
  > > You have to be bad in order to discover what kind of good you want to be (or are able to be). > > Sounds like one of those pseudo-profound woo statements. > > Many people manage being perfect good, well-adjusted humans without going through a bout of "being bad". The way I read it, that paragraph is not about whether anyone can be a well-adjusted human or not. Rather, it is about how specifically some people discover what kind of good they want to be by being bad. In that sense, "you have to be bad" talks to those people specifically, and uses "have" to refer to that causal process. (English is not my first language, so my interpretation may be very wrong.)
  - gnicholas 3y ago
    FYI you don’t have to include a quote of the entire parent post in your reply. People typically just include quotes when they are responding to a piece of the parent comment, and want to make it clear what they’re responding to. Thanks for the downvotes — mind explaining why? I have literally never seen anyone do this in the decade-plus I've been here, and thought it would be helpful to mention.
    - c22 3y ago
      I didn't downvote you, but it's probably because your comment added nothing to the conversation. We're already down here at the bottom of the page, we already slogged through the gratuitous inline quote, and then there's you telling us something irrelevant we already know. And now I'm here making it even worse. Sorry.
      - gnicholas 3y ago
thanhhaimai 3y ago
I tried reading this, but for some reason I can't connect with it. The ideas that the author wrote seems very foreign to me (born and raised in Asia). For example, this doesn't ring a bell : > You thought that doing this – taking drugs, lying to your best friend – would give you the life you wanted; and then it doesn’t Or this: > You have to be bad in order to discover what kind of good you want to be (or are able to be). To me, what was considered "good" was clearly laid out by parents and schools. I think it's the same here in the US: a large portion of the population follow the definition of "good" from their parents and churches (a bit less so from schools) I would love to have some help to understand the article's viewpoint better.
- polishdude20 3y ago
  I think the articles viewpoint is that kids not only need to be told the rules and follow them blindly but also need to test the rules and see if they are really as important as everyone says. It's the same thinking when people say you have to make your own mistakes to truly learn.
  - thanhhaimai 3y ago
    > but also need to test the rules and see if they are really as important as everyone says. Thank you. Then I don't quite agree with the article on this. I don't need to "test the rules" myself to see if they are ready as important as everyone says. I can observe. For example: I don't need to drive without a seatbelt to "test" whether seatbelt is as important as everyone says. I can observe that people without seatbelt have worse outcomes from accidents. I think this might also be related to whether the kid grow up with parents they can trust and are able to explain the reasons behind "rules" to them. I was fortunate that my parents always tried their best to explain why I should or should not do something. I questioned them a lot, but defaulted to "trust" when they didnt have time to explain.
    - daseiner1 3y ago
      > For example: I don't need to drive without a seatbelt to "test" whether seatbelt is as important as everyone says. There is a trivial objection to every ethical position. The parent commenter is not suggesting every rule needs to be tested. But we can imagine plenty of situations where a form of rebellion would be endorsed by most, or may at least be supposed to be constructive to one’s identity. For instance, rejecting one’s family’s religious practices. Preferring tinkering alone in a milieu that prefers more extraverted, social activities and might view the aforementioned as a concerning form of lonerism. Living, briefly, a nomadic lifestyle. Historically (and, unfortunately, still into the present in some places), being sociable with people of differing race was/is met with censure and even threat of violence. And so on. Certain forms of cultural transgression are imperative, in my opinion, for the advancement and development of society, culture, and (as a downstream effect), technology. There are certainly advantages to a more conservative, traditionalist societal arrangement as well. It’s a matter of balance.
flockonus 3y ago
Praise to this website to how well it saves to .pdf, might sound insignificant but I've lost count to how many times i needed to manually adjust website elements or layout before having anything near a viable save or print.
tomcam 3y ago
> When you play truant you have a better time… When you betray yourself, when you let yourself down… You have to be bad in order to discover what kind of good you want to be This implies that being truant from school is some kind of a self-betrayal. School as constituted over the last 50 years ago or so is effectively no different from prison for many many people. If you are sedentary, intellectually inclined, and not cut out for a job in the trades, school may be good for you. If you need fresh air or are entrepreneurial or competitive in sports or are better suited for welding than for trig, it is 12 to 16 years of punishment and being ground down.
- PopAlongKid 3y ago
  >School as constituted over the last 50 years ago or so What changed 50 years ago? >If you need fresh air I got plenty of fresh air walking to and from school each day, as well as gym class, and recess in elementary school, intermural sports in high school. >12 to 16 years of punishment and being ground down In your example, why would someone attend 16 years if only 12 are required? Also, school year is only 35-40 weeks of the calendar year, so not really like a prison at all.
  - tomcam 3y ago
    Starting around 50 years ago things like wood shop, metal shop, home economics, sports, economics, PE, and band started to lose funding. By about 20 years ago most schools stopped these programs. Teachers nowadays think almost exclusively in terms of students getting a college education, not some going into the trades, and some getting degrees. This has led to many people being steered into college or university when they should really just be out working a job. Hence the 16 year number. I am delighted this system worked out for you. It is perfectly valid for many. It is also a hellhole for many others.
    - bcrosby95 3y ago
      It's a damn shame too. I was never interested in the trades, but being able to use your hands to build stuff is useful. I still have the clock, cutting board, and dustpan I made in my wood/metal shop. There should, at the very least, be something where you learn to follow instructions and put things together. Like ikea furniture. Learn how to hang a picture. And so on. Heck, I know people who can barely change their light bulbs.
photochemsyn 3y ago
I'm not sure after reading this what 'good' and 'bad' even refer to. Is there some independent ethical principle to uphold, or is it merely a matter of obeying the rules one is given? A truly difficult child will pester the parents about the quality of the societal ruleset they're supposed to obey, taking advantage of any obvious hypocrisy in the application of the ruleset, or internal contradictions, e.g. "so how come poor people go to jail for commiting a crime, when rich people just get a fine and don't have to go to jail?" Eventually the frustrated parent will give in and admit that human society is ridden with hypocrisy and contradictions, which is probably all the difficult child was looking for - some honesty. P.S. I think Bertrand Russell fits the definition of 'difficult' in this sense: https://harpers.org/archive/1932/10/in-praise-of-idleness/ https://harpers.org/archive/1932/10/in-praise-of-idleness/ > "All this is only preliminary. I want to say, in all seriousness, that a great deal of harm is being done in the modern world by the belief in the virtuousness of work, and that the road to happiness and prosperity lies in an organized diminution of work."
ufocia 3y ago
Sounds like the old adage that you learn from failures, not successes. Much ado about nothing, methinks.
neonate 3y ago
https://web.archive.org/web/20240120095030/https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v31/n03/adam-phillips/in-praise-of-difficult-children https://web.archive.org/web/20240120095030/https://www.lrb.c...
SebFender 3y ago
I have to live with a difficult kid for the past years (GF's daughter) and I have no patience for babies. Every time I challenge, mommy comes in to cover. Any way - one day she will hit her Waterloo and deal with it. As for me - I now wave saying goodbye and good luck.
cmrdporcupine 3y ago
Being a parent of an adolescent that is just as troubled as I was as an adolescent... is basically the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. It's harder being the parent to that adolescent, than it was being that adolescent. It's like watching your toddler reach and put their hand out on a hot stove burner... knowing exactly what that's going to feel like... and not being able to do almost anything about it.
precompute 3y ago
If personal responsibility towards harmful things requires firsthand, "practical experience" of the same, then we need better philosophers and teachers, and an environment that rewards people in the long run for not choosing the wrong things.
surfingdino 3y ago
"You have to be bad in order to discover what kind of good you want to be (or are able to be)." ... How very Etonian.
thom 3y ago
It’s funny reading some of the responses here because it’s clear many people have lived as if responding to a completely literal reading of only the first paragraph of the book of life.
matrix87 3y ago
> In straightforward psychoanalytic terms, adolescents truant from parents as forbidden objects of desire, as the people who have deprived them; they truant for accessible objects of desire, for the possibility of making up for the inevitable deprivations they have suffered growing up with their parents, for the sex the parents can’t provide. This was a good article until they started bringing in the Freudian mumbo jumbo

61 points by yamrzou 3y ago

I love this. It beautifully captures the inner conflict of adolescence and the quest for self-discovery. It's easy to forget how hard that time of life can be and how in order to truly understand ourselves, we must explore the boundaries of our beliefs and reconsider once closely held ideals. It's a messy journey, but it's the only path to find our authentic selves.

leetrout 3y ago
Im 39 and that is still true for me today. In my career. In my marriage. As a parent.
- silasdavis 3y ago
  An incomprehensible mess
  - leetrout 3y ago
    clears throat A _beautiful_ mess

paulryanrogers 3y ago

> You have to be bad in order to discover what kind of good you want to be (or are able to be). I find this hard to believe. Somethings may be difficult to learn without firsthand experience. Though I'm not convinced this is the same for everyone or that it applies to being 'bad'.

chefandy 3y ago
They’re using the word “bad” as shorthand for deviance, because people often view all deviance as bad. I can’t imagine someone going through adolescence without deviating from their own or other people’s expectations and learning something from it— be it about life, themselves, their relationships, or even deviance itself. However, I obviously can’t see into other peoples minds, and my experience was far more deviant than most, so it’s not a representative point of comparison. I do think testing boundaries by defying rules and expectations, even in pretty benign ways, is a pretty normal part of adolescence, and I think by labeling that “bad” the author was trying to elicit a similar response: “well if it’s beneficial, is it truly bad?”
wizerdrobe 3y ago
Some folks are able to listen to an authority figure and follow through with what is expected no problem. Some folks might not trust those authority figures and their advice. For those, doing wrong and discovering you don’t like it is a hard won life lesson. Along a similar line, I’ve heard it say that if you consider yourself a peaceful person but are not actually capable of great violence, then are you actually peaceful or simply harmless? If you’re not capable of doing wrong perhaos you’re not good, simply neutral “robot” entity confined to your programming.
- thanhhaimai 3y ago
  > Along a similar line, I’ve heard it say that if you consider yourself a peaceful person but are not actually capable of great violence, then are you actually peaceful or simply harmless? Why not both peaceful and harmless (for the moment)? This is a function of time. I don't think it's possible to make that statement without supplying the time parameter. Also, I don't think peaceful people are not capable of great violence. It's about choice. I'm capable of violence, but I choose to not use that capability.
  - beebeepka 3y ago
    It's not simply a choice. I know that I am capable of terrible things, if pushed. I know because I've done plenty of stuff I am not proud of. Avoiding guilt, or reprisals, doesn't make me "good". All this reminded me of this fantastic Stargate SG-1 episode: https://stargate.fandom.com/wiki/Absolute_Power https://stargate.fandom.com/wiki/Absolute_Power
- noduerme 3y ago
  I don't think there's such a thing as a human incapable of violence, given the right situation. Check out the reaction of every other mammal on the planet when cornered in a life-threatening situation. Many are incapable of effective violence, but as a last resort it's hardwired. Being a peaceful person on a daily basis is a measure of how socialized you are and how much negotiation and compromise you're capable of, but that in turn is a measure of your ability to evaluate risk and threat in a sane, socialized way. Non-peaceful people are in some ways reacting to everything as if it were a threat to their lives. Harmlessness and peaceability are orthogonal to each other. One can be violent and harmless just as easily as peaceable and dangerous.
ChainOfFools 3y ago
Being bad, in its most salient forms, has a greater power than being good to jolt you out of a complacent life lived around the question how, and thereby make you consider the question why instead.

elevatedastalt 3y ago

> You have to be bad in order to discover what kind of good you want to be (or are able to be). Sounds like one of those pseudo-profound woo statements. Many people manage being perfect good, well-adjusted humans without going through a bout of "being bad".

dadoomer 3y ago
> > You have to be bad in order to discover what kind of good you want to be (or are able to be). > > Sounds like one of those pseudo-profound woo statements. > > Many people manage being perfect good, well-adjusted humans without going through a bout of "being bad". The way I read it, that paragraph is not about whether anyone can be a well-adjusted human or not. Rather, it is about how specifically some people discover what kind of good they want to be by being bad. In that sense, "you have to be bad" talks to those people specifically, and uses "have" to refer to that causal process. (English is not my first language, so my interpretation may be very wrong.)
- gnicholas 3y ago
  FYI you don’t have to include a quote of the entire parent post in your reply. People typically just include quotes when they are responding to a piece of the parent comment, and want to make it clear what they’re responding to. Thanks for the downvotes — mind explaining why? I have literally never seen anyone do this in the decade-plus I've been here, and thought it would be helpful to mention.
  - c22 3y ago
    I didn't downvote you, but it's probably because your comment added nothing to the conversation. We're already down here at the bottom of the page, we already slogged through the gratuitous inline quote, and then there's you telling us something irrelevant we already know. And now I'm here making it even worse. Sorry.
    - gnicholas 3y ago

thanhhaimai 3y ago

I tried reading this, but for some reason I can't connect with it. The ideas that the author wrote seems very foreign to me (born and raised in Asia). For example, this doesn't ring a bell : > You thought that doing this – taking drugs, lying to your best friend – would give you the life you wanted; and then it doesn’t Or this: > You have to be bad in order to discover what kind of good you want to be (or are able to be). To me, what was considered "good" was clearly laid out by parents and schools. I think it's the same here in the US: a large portion of the population follow the definition of "good" from their parents and churches (a bit less so from schools) I would love to have some help to understand the article's viewpoint better.

polishdude20 3y ago
I think the articles viewpoint is that kids not only need to be told the rules and follow them blindly but also need to test the rules and see if they are really as important as everyone says. It's the same thinking when people say you have to make your own mistakes to truly learn.
- thanhhaimai 3y ago
  > but also need to test the rules and see if they are really as important as everyone says. Thank you. Then I don't quite agree with the article on this. I don't need to "test the rules" myself to see if they are ready as important as everyone says. I can observe. For example: I don't need to drive without a seatbelt to "test" whether seatbelt is as important as everyone says. I can observe that people without seatbelt have worse outcomes from accidents. I think this might also be related to whether the kid grow up with parents they can trust and are able to explain the reasons behind "rules" to them. I was fortunate that my parents always tried their best to explain why I should or should not do something. I questioned them a lot, but defaulted to "trust" when they didnt have time to explain.
  - daseiner1 3y ago
    > For example: I don't need to drive without a seatbelt to "test" whether seatbelt is as important as everyone says. There is a trivial objection to every ethical position. The parent commenter is not suggesting every rule needs to be tested. But we can imagine plenty of situations where a form of rebellion would be endorsed by most, or may at least be supposed to be constructive to one’s identity. For instance, rejecting one’s family’s religious practices. Preferring tinkering alone in a milieu that prefers more extraverted, social activities and might view the aforementioned as a concerning form of lonerism. Living, briefly, a nomadic lifestyle. Historically (and, unfortunately, still into the present in some places), being sociable with people of differing race was/is met with censure and even threat of violence. And so on. Certain forms of cultural transgression are imperative, in my opinion, for the advancement and development of society, culture, and (as a downstream effect), technology. There are certainly advantages to a more conservative, traditionalist societal arrangement as well. It’s a matter of balance.

flockonus 3y ago

Praise to this website to how well it saves to .pdf, might sound insignificant but I've lost count to how many times i needed to manually adjust website elements or layout before having anything near a viable save or print.

tomcam 3y ago

> When you play truant you have a better time… When you betray yourself, when you let yourself down… You have to be bad in order to discover what kind of good you want to be This implies that being truant from school is some kind of a self-betrayal. School as constituted over the last 50 years ago or so is effectively no different from prison for many many people. If you are sedentary, intellectually inclined, and not cut out for a job in the trades, school may be good for you. If you need fresh air or are entrepreneurial or competitive in sports or are better suited for welding than for trig, it is 12 to 16 years of punishment and being ground down.

PopAlongKid 3y ago
>School as constituted over the last 50 years ago or so What changed 50 years ago? >If you need fresh air I got plenty of fresh air walking to and from school each day, as well as gym class, and recess in elementary school, intermural sports in high school. >12 to 16 years of punishment and being ground down In your example, why would someone attend 16 years if only 12 are required? Also, school year is only 35-40 weeks of the calendar year, so not really like a prison at all.
- tomcam 3y ago
  Starting around 50 years ago things like wood shop, metal shop, home economics, sports, economics, PE, and band started to lose funding. By about 20 years ago most schools stopped these programs. Teachers nowadays think almost exclusively in terms of students getting a college education, not some going into the trades, and some getting degrees. This has led to many people being steered into college or university when they should really just be out working a job. Hence the 16 year number. I am delighted this system worked out for you. It is perfectly valid for many. It is also a hellhole for many others.
  - bcrosby95 3y ago
    It's a damn shame too. I was never interested in the trades, but being able to use your hands to build stuff is useful. I still have the clock, cutting board, and dustpan I made in my wood/metal shop. There should, at the very least, be something where you learn to follow instructions and put things together. Like ikea furniture. Learn how to hang a picture. And so on. Heck, I know people who can barely change their light bulbs.

photochemsyn 3y ago

I'm not sure after reading this what 'good' and 'bad' even refer to. Is there some independent ethical principle to uphold, or is it merely a matter of obeying the rules one is given? A truly difficult child will pester the parents about the quality of the societal ruleset they're supposed to obey, taking advantage of any obvious hypocrisy in the application of the ruleset, or internal contradictions, e.g. "so how come poor people go to jail for commiting a crime, when rich people just get a fine and don't have to go to jail?" Eventually the frustrated parent will give in and admit that human society is ridden with hypocrisy and contradictions, which is probably all the difficult child was looking for - some honesty. P.S. I think Bertrand Russell fits the definition of 'difficult' in this sense: https://harpers.org/archive/1932/10/in-praise-of-idleness/ https://harpers.org/archive/1932/10/in-praise-of-idleness/ > "All this is only preliminary. I want to say, in all seriousness, that a great deal of harm is being done in the modern world by the belief in the virtuousness of work, and that the road to happiness and prosperity lies in an organized diminution of work."

ufocia 3y ago

Sounds like the old adage that you learn from failures, not successes. Much ado about nothing, methinks.

neonate 3y ago

https://web.archive.org/web/20240120095030/https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v31/n03/adam-phillips/in-praise-of-difficult-children https://web.archive.org/web/20240120095030/https://www.lrb.c...

SebFender 3y ago

I have to live with a difficult kid for the past years (GF's daughter) and I have no patience for babies. Every time I challenge, mommy comes in to cover. Any way - one day she will hit her Waterloo and deal with it. As for me - I now wave saying goodbye and good luck.

cmrdporcupine 3y ago

Being a parent of an adolescent that is just as troubled as I was as an adolescent... is basically the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. It's harder being the parent to that adolescent, than it was being that adolescent. It's like watching your toddler reach and put their hand out on a hot stove burner... knowing exactly what that's going to feel like... and not being able to do almost anything about it.

precompute 3y ago

If personal responsibility towards harmful things requires firsthand, "practical experience" of the same, then we need better philosophers and teachers, and an environment that rewards people in the long run for not choosing the wrong things.

surfingdino 3y ago

"You have to be bad in order to discover what kind of good you want to be (or are able to be)." ... How very Etonian.

thom 3y ago

It’s funny reading some of the responses here because it’s clear many people have lived as if responding to a completely literal reading of only the first paragraph of the book of life.

matrix87 3y ago

> In straightforward psychoanalytic terms, adolescents truant from parents as forbidden objects of desire, as the people who have deprived them; they truant for accessible objects of desire, for the possibility of making up for the inevitable deprivations they have suffered growing up with their parents, for the sex the parents can’t provide. This was a good article until they started bringing in the Freudian mumbo jumbo