3 ms·

This material sounds like a hoax reminiscent of the Sloot Digital Coding System[0], another supposedly groundbreaking "lost invention". An amateur chemist is u

by cedws 3y ago

This material sounds like a hoax reminiscent of the Sloot Digital Coding System[0], another supposedly groundbreaking "lost invention". An amateur chemist is unlikely to be able to invent such a material. It's also odd to keep the recipe a closely guarded secret instead of patenting and selling it. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloot_Digital_Coding_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloot_Digital_Coding_System

bpye 3y ago
Whilst true it seems like the AWRE and Ministry of Defence thought it was credible.
- heads 3y ago
  I can also completely forgive anyone in the 1980s for being led down the spooky national-defence paranoia route, regarding their invention. It was a different time where people were more deferential to the authorities, and had more of a reason to want their protection. You just need one visit from the men in grey coats asking nicely for a cup of tea, your formula, and your signature on the official secrets act. The effects compounded if you were prone to the Walter Mitty effect. Anything crucial enough to maintaining an edge in the Cold War — or rather, ensuring survival should it become a hot war, something for which magical ablative insulation would be very handy — isn’t the sort of thing that gets a patent. One simply doesn’t win by suing the USSR for intellectual property infringement in the dying ashes of civilisation, old boy. A lecturer of mine published a paper on bivalve adhesion that was allegedly funded by government interests desperate to maintain a strategic lead in limpet mines. Another worked with ultra high speed equipment with an electronic shutter that was switched by a krytron, the same component used in nuclear device detonation. There was a potent, possibly overblown concern about labs being infiltrated or broken into. I think we forget about the miserable amount of paranoia brought about by the world being permanently only four minutes away from ending, and the weird things it made people do.
  - Sniffnoy 3y ago
    For those who haven't heard of it, the actual law governing this is the Ivention Secrecy Act: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention_Secrecy_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention_Secrecy_Act
    - kragen 3y ago
      usa law does not have jurisdiction in hartlepool yet, so this is sort of irrelevant, but presumably the uk has something similar
      - bpye 3y ago
        Section 22 of the Patents Act 1977 is, as far as I can tell, the analogous legislation [0]. [0] - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-patent-act-1977/section-22-security-and-safety-information-prejudicial-to-national-security-or-safety-of-public https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-patent-act-1977/section-22-s...
      - heads 3y ago
        Some would say not even English law has much authority in Hartlepool: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_hanger https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_hanger
      - 6510 3y ago
        The US is the only one who [be it long ago] publised a list of topics subject to review and a number every year. Total Secrecy Orders in Effect at the end of 2023 was 6155 https://sgp.fas.org/othergov/invention/stats.html https://sgp.fas.org/othergov/invention/stats.html Safe to assume other countries combined add more thousands. I see room for a much greater than zero chance we live in a science fiction story with carefully chosen toys for the irresponsible masses. (that would be us, haha) They have like cloaking fields, a garage full of flying cars, a crate of mister fusions, hand held teleportation devices, sentient holograms, a hypno ray to rc people like toy cars and an interstellar phone to talk with our alien overlords.
        3y ago
fbdab103 3y ago
Also, if samples were really given out for testing, I find it incredulous nobody stole a small bit they could throw into a mass spectrometer.
- shermantanktop 3y ago
  My understanding is that for a simple mix of elements, that might be helpful. But it’s not a matter decompiler. For more complex material, it’ll point you in a direction, not give you a recipe.
  - Intralexical 3y ago
    "Yup, that's mass!"
    - shermantanktop 3y ago
      It’s definitely not not mass…
      - Intralexical 3y ago
        Have we considered the possibility that it might be energy? I heard sometimes you might think something is mass but actually it's energy.
        shermantanktop 3y ago
        It’s energy turtles all the way down.
  - fbdab103 3y ago
    Totally, but you could get a pretty big starting point vs knowing nothing. Especially if it is composed of organic compounds, you have a chance of deciphering some of the molecules. My big hedge - I am not sure the specs of a 40 year old MS. Unit resolution is probably the best case scenario along with super limited m/z range. Interrogating a sample would be much harder than today.
Intralexical 3y ago
My read of it, given the later moderately successful replication attempts, is that it's probably mostly real, but also actually just significantly less impressive than it sounds. Most organic materials turn into some form of carbon or ceramic when heated, at which point heat resistance on its own isn't that big of a deal.
- lifthrasiir 3y ago
  Yeah, there are several classified materials that are nonetheless believed to exist and even function as advertised, like FOGBANK [1]. Starlite might be a similar case, given current knowledges. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fogbank https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fogbank
  - Intralexical 3y ago
    It also might not be better than existing options. Military and aerospace probably want something sturdier, more aerodynamic, and more predictable, while for civilian applications I'm having a hard time thinking of any occasions where you'd want extremely capable but single use heat shielding.
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      To my understanding, intumescent paint is great to paint on structural elements of buildings. E.g. a skyscraper's steel frame.
    - spiffistan 3y ago
      A coating for projectiles to be able to withstand the heat from laser weapons would be one with possibly significant impact, given recent announcements.
  - thatcat 3y ago
    The story of this material is hilarious... Legacy y12 workers were told not to talk to anyone about the process or write anything down, many didn't even understand how the process worked as a whole, eventually enough workers aged out of their jobs and the manufacturing process stopped working and no one could trouble shoot it effectively.

by cedws 3y ago

bpye 3y ago

Whilst true it seems like the AWRE and Ministry of Defence thought it was credible.

heads 3y ago
I can also completely forgive anyone in the 1980s for being led down the spooky national-defence paranoia route, regarding their invention. It was a different time where people were more deferential to the authorities, and had more of a reason to want their protection. You just need one visit from the men in grey coats asking nicely for a cup of tea, your formula, and your signature on the official secrets act. The effects compounded if you were prone to the Walter Mitty effect. Anything crucial enough to maintaining an edge in the Cold War — or rather, ensuring survival should it become a hot war, something for which magical ablative insulation would be very handy — isn’t the sort of thing that gets a patent. One simply doesn’t win by suing the USSR for intellectual property infringement in the dying ashes of civilisation, old boy. A lecturer of mine published a paper on bivalve adhesion that was allegedly funded by government interests desperate to maintain a strategic lead in limpet mines. Another worked with ultra high speed equipment with an electronic shutter that was switched by a krytron, the same component used in nuclear device detonation. There was a potent, possibly overblown concern about labs being infiltrated or broken into. I think we forget about the miserable amount of paranoia brought about by the world being permanently only four minutes away from ending, and the weird things it made people do.
- Sniffnoy 3y ago
  For those who haven't heard of it, the actual law governing this is the Ivention Secrecy Act: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention_Secrecy_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention_Secrecy_Act
  - kragen 3y ago
    usa law does not have jurisdiction in hartlepool yet, so this is sort of irrelevant, but presumably the uk has something similar
    - bpye 3y ago
      Section 22 of the Patents Act 1977 is, as far as I can tell, the analogous legislation [0]. [0] - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-patent-act-1977/section-22-security-and-safety-information-prejudicial-to-national-security-or-safety-of-public https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-patent-act-1977/section-22-s...
    - heads 3y ago
      Some would say not even English law has much authority in Hartlepool: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_hanger https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_hanger
    - 6510 3y ago
      The US is the only one who [be it long ago] publised a list of topics subject to review and a number every year. Total Secrecy Orders in Effect at the end of 2023 was 6155 https://sgp.fas.org/othergov/invention/stats.html https://sgp.fas.org/othergov/invention/stats.html Safe to assume other countries combined add more thousands. I see room for a much greater than zero chance we live in a science fiction story with carefully chosen toys for the irresponsible masses. (that would be us, haha) They have like cloaking fields, a garage full of flying cars, a crate of mister fusions, hand held teleportation devices, sentient holograms, a hypno ray to rc people like toy cars and an interstellar phone to talk with our alien overlords.
      - 3y ago

fbdab103 3y ago

Also, if samples were really given out for testing, I find it incredulous nobody stole a small bit they could throw into a mass spectrometer.

shermantanktop 3y ago
My understanding is that for a simple mix of elements, that might be helpful. But it’s not a matter decompiler. For more complex material, it’ll point you in a direction, not give you a recipe.
- Intralexical 3y ago
  "Yup, that's mass!"
  - shermantanktop 3y ago
    It’s definitely not not mass…
    - Intralexical 3y ago
      Have we considered the possibility that it might be energy? I heard sometimes you might think something is mass but actually it's energy.
      - shermantanktop 3y ago
        It’s energy turtles all the way down.
- fbdab103 3y ago
  Totally, but you could get a pretty big starting point vs knowing nothing. Especially if it is composed of organic compounds, you have a chance of deciphering some of the molecules. My big hedge - I am not sure the specs of a 40 year old MS. Unit resolution is probably the best case scenario along with super limited m/z range. Interrogating a sample would be much harder than today.

Intralexical 3y ago

My read of it, given the later moderately successful replication attempts, is that it's probably mostly real, but also actually just significantly less impressive than it sounds. Most organic materials turn into some form of carbon or ceramic when heated, at which point heat resistance on its own isn't that big of a deal.

lifthrasiir 3y ago
Yeah, there are several classified materials that are nonetheless believed to exist and even function as advertised, like FOGBANK [1]. Starlite might be a similar case, given current knowledges. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fogbank https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fogbank
- Intralexical 3y ago
  It also might not be better than existing options. Military and aerospace probably want something sturdier, more aerodynamic, and more predictable, while for civilian applications I'm having a hard time thinking of any occasions where you'd want extremely capable but single use heat shielding.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    To my understanding, intumescent paint is great to paint on structural elements of buildings. E.g. a skyscraper's steel frame.
  - spiffistan 3y ago
    A coating for projectiles to be able to withstand the heat from laser weapons would be one with possibly significant impact, given recent announcements.
- thatcat 3y ago
  The story of this material is hilarious... Legacy y12 workers were told not to talk to anyone about the process or write anything down, many didn't even understand how the process worked as a whole, eventually enough workers aged out of their jobs and the manufacturing process stopped working and no one could trouble shoot it effectively.