4 ms·

Loathe as I am to be in any way sympathetic to Amazon, I have to ask: what's the right thing that should have happened? It's pretty standard that in a fire you

by gumby 3y ago

Loathe as I am to be in any way sympathetic to Amazon, I have to ask: what's the right thing that should have happened? It's pretty standard that in a fire you leave the building and assemble in some safe location. The only fire drills I've done have been in school, in clement weather, and we assembled in the parking lot away enough from the buildings that the fire wouldn't affect us, we wouldn't be in the way of firefighters and away from the road. But when it's cold: what provisions should be made to ensure the assembly point is a "safe location"? It's reasonable to assume people will evacuate without jackets or anything. I don't know the answer, but perhaps someone who's been in a fire drill in a cold climate can explain.

pests 3y ago
Just like we have requirements for fire extinguishers and fire ladders / suppression systems, there should be requirements on providing protection from the elements in situations like these as well. Outside heaters, emergency blankets and ponchos, chemical warming packs, etc. This is a workplace. We already take precautions against fire and chemicals and whatnot, this isn't asking for much more.
impossiblefork 3y ago
What would have happened here in Sweden is that if people weren't dressed for the cold they'd probably get shelter somehow-- maybe go home, enter a restaurant or other building. -30 C is really incredibly cold. You just can't stand around in that without proper clothes. I think the problem is that a lot of Americans are incredibly servile and will obey employers, authorities etc., even when it's harmful or dangerous. I especially remember a case where a woman was in court and was sexually assaulted by a marshal, right there with the judge ignoring it. But what I found very curious was how he was obeyed, and how the judge was obeyed. Here in Sweden, neither judge nor marshal would have been obeyed. I think the servility is probably caused by the experience that employers and authorities can get away with anything, and a fear that they will do worse if challenged or attacked.
- sleep-grenade 3y ago
  it somehow feels like a lot of middle-managers explain it to themselves that they also just have no choice but to do what they're told from above and boss people around.. .. but imagine if you were that manager that had told people to stand around in the freezing cold and then someone just dropped dead. or the person above them .. well i guess they probably don't think about this kind of stuff at all i'm just having a hard time putting myself in one of those people's shoes
- hacoo 3y ago
  Well, this took place in canada. That said, amazon warehouse employees have no leverage and are easy to fire, which I suspect leads to a culture of 'follow the rules or else'.
  - randomdata 3y ago
    > employees have no leverage Amazon's job ad for "Warehouse Team Member" at that location indicates pay 30% above minimum wage plus benefits. That suggests the workers have a reasonable amount of leverage. After all, why would Amazon pay anything more than minimum wage if the workers had no leverage? There is nothing to suggest that Amazon operates as a charity. > are easy to fire Not when one is being fired over taking necessary precautions to serve their health and wellbeing. Ontario labour law does not take kindly to that in the slightest. In fact, Ontario regulation requires employers to make that known to the employees, so it isn't even a case of "He didn't know." The, as summed up by the popular TV show based on the nearby town of Listowel, "When a friend asks for help, you help them" explanation is the most likely. It is the Canadian culture to be compliant when someone asks something of you.
    - Alpha3031 3y ago
      There are proposed microfoundations for efficiency wages that do not necessary imply a significant level of bargaining power for an individual worker.
      - 3y ago
KennyBlanken 3y ago
Their cars. Which they were told not to enter, probably with the threat of being fired. Because Amazon fears that someone will pocket some inventory during the fire alarm, and then stash it in their car. So for the risk of the world's richest man losing maybe a grand or two in stolen inventory - someone died.
- infamouscow 3y ago
  I don't think Bezos is the one that came up with these idiotic corporate policies.
  - mofosyne 3y ago
    Wether or not he decided it or not. He is still the prime beneficiary of a culture of explotation and fear.
    - infamouscow 3y ago
      He's the primary reason why 1.5 million people have jobs.
      - RobRivera 3y ago
        Both statements can be true
    - randomdata 3y ago
      Yes, no doubt the supervisor(s) feared that if they let it happen their job would be on the line. But how warranted was that fear? Would Bezos actually fly up to YXU and personally fire the management team over a worker sitting in their car? Or was it completely imagined? From my unattached outsider's perspective, I am almost certain Bezos would do no such thing. In fact, it is almost guaranteed that he would have never known about it, assuming it would have saved this person's life. In my experience with small business, I wouldn't even be able to keep track if any of the workers there were sitting in a car during a fire drill unless I watched it happen. There is no way someone in a business of millions of people is keeping such tabs. I can appreciate the imagining, though. I'm guilty of such things myself, finding out later the person I thought would draw ire wasn't thinking about me at all. I'm not sure that is cultural. It seems to be a basic human trait. In fact, our culture tries to remind people that nobody is thinking about you.

by gumby 3y ago

pests 3y ago

Just like we have requirements for fire extinguishers and fire ladders / suppression systems, there should be requirements on providing protection from the elements in situations like these as well. Outside heaters, emergency blankets and ponchos, chemical warming packs, etc. This is a workplace. We already take precautions against fire and chemicals and whatnot, this isn't asking for much more.

impossiblefork 3y ago

What would have happened here in Sweden is that if people weren't dressed for the cold they'd probably get shelter somehow-- maybe go home, enter a restaurant or other building. -30 C is really incredibly cold. You just can't stand around in that without proper clothes. I think the problem is that a lot of Americans are incredibly servile and will obey employers, authorities etc., even when it's harmful or dangerous. I especially remember a case where a woman was in court and was sexually assaulted by a marshal, right there with the judge ignoring it. But what I found very curious was how he was obeyed, and how the judge was obeyed. Here in Sweden, neither judge nor marshal would have been obeyed. I think the servility is probably caused by the experience that employers and authorities can get away with anything, and a fear that they will do worse if challenged or attacked.

sleep-grenade 3y ago
it somehow feels like a lot of middle-managers explain it to themselves that they also just have no choice but to do what they're told from above and boss people around.. .. but imagine if you were that manager that had told people to stand around in the freezing cold and then someone just dropped dead. or the person above them .. well i guess they probably don't think about this kind of stuff at all i'm just having a hard time putting myself in one of those people's shoes
hacoo 3y ago
Well, this took place in canada. That said, amazon warehouse employees have no leverage and are easy to fire, which I suspect leads to a culture of 'follow the rules or else'.
- randomdata 3y ago
  > employees have no leverage Amazon's job ad for "Warehouse Team Member" at that location indicates pay 30% above minimum wage plus benefits. That suggests the workers have a reasonable amount of leverage. After all, why would Amazon pay anything more than minimum wage if the workers had no leverage? There is nothing to suggest that Amazon operates as a charity. > are easy to fire Not when one is being fired over taking necessary precautions to serve their health and wellbeing. Ontario labour law does not take kindly to that in the slightest. In fact, Ontario regulation requires employers to make that known to the employees, so it isn't even a case of "He didn't know." The, as summed up by the popular TV show based on the nearby town of Listowel, "When a friend asks for help, you help them" explanation is the most likely. It is the Canadian culture to be compliant when someone asks something of you.
  - Alpha3031 3y ago
    There are proposed microfoundations for efficiency wages that do not necessary imply a significant level of bargaining power for an individual worker.
    - 3y ago

KennyBlanken 3y ago

Their cars. Which they were told not to enter, probably with the threat of being fired. Because Amazon fears that someone will pocket some inventory during the fire alarm, and then stash it in their car. So for the risk of the world's richest man losing maybe a grand or two in stolen inventory - someone died.

infamouscow 3y ago
I don't think Bezos is the one that came up with these idiotic corporate policies.
- mofosyne 3y ago
  Wether or not he decided it or not. He is still the prime beneficiary of a culture of explotation and fear.
  - infamouscow 3y ago
    He's the primary reason why 1.5 million people have jobs.
    - RobRivera 3y ago
      Both statements can be true
  - randomdata 3y ago
    Yes, no doubt the supervisor(s) feared that if they let it happen their job would be on the line. But how warranted was that fear? Would Bezos actually fly up to YXU and personally fire the management team over a worker sitting in their car? Or was it completely imagined? From my unattached outsider's perspective, I am almost certain Bezos would do no such thing. In fact, it is almost guaranteed that he would have never known about it, assuming it would have saved this person's life. In my experience with small business, I wouldn't even be able to keep track if any of the workers there were sitting in a car during a fire drill unless I watched it happen. There is no way someone in a business of millions of people is keeping such tabs. I can appreciate the imagining, though. I'm guilty of such things myself, finding out later the person I thought would draw ire wasn't thinking about me at all. I'm not sure that is cultural. It seems to be a basic human trait. In fact, our culture tries to remind people that nobody is thinking about you.