4 ms·

Things still going on right now: Prosecutions are still going on but are being led by the Crown Prosecution Service (vs. the post office). Fujitsu are continu

Things still going on right now: Prosecutions are still going on but are being led by the Crown Prosecution Service (vs. the post office). Fujitsu are continuing to proving the CPS / post office with data that they have been doing for years (and possibly still providing witness statements, I dunno). Subpostmasters still complain about bugs in the horizon software causing balance errors. Subpostmasters still get fined and have to pay the Post Office ( automatically deducted from their salary) for any shortfalls that occur.

jiggawatts 3y ago
This issue has been public knowledge for years. How is this possible!?
- amiga386 3y ago
  The contract to be an SPM makes you liable for all losses, no matter how they are caused, which includes blatant faults of the accounting/ePOS software. It's the ultimate case of moral hazard. Why fix the broken software if it's only some other sucker who's on the hook for it?
  - heads 3y ago
    I taught in a private school for a while. In England and Wales the law says that your employment “contract” is simply the verbal, written, or implied agreement to work there and the document enumerating the details — the written statement of employment particulars which is basically the thing you or I would call “the contract” — doesn’t have to be supplied until up to two months after you’ve started work. My employment particulars came the day of the two month deadline. They included a clause that said that the school had the final say on any claim brought by a pupil or their family against me for loss or damage and that any compensation would automatically be deducted from my salary. Unsurprisingly, I did not agree to this clause and did not sign the document! The school also refused to negotiate and I worked there for two years in a kind of contract limbo. I’ve gone back to being a SWE now. I was lucky to not be beholden to one industry like my fellow teachers were. I can completely see how a sub-postmaster, without a fallback career, can get cornered into accepting some ludicrously unfair terms.
    - amiga386 3y ago
      That is pretty awful, and although it's legal to argue over contract terms, including the employer being completely obstinate and your only option being not to agree, you were right not to back down and accept such a one-sided negotiation. In the case of SPMs, as the Post Office holds all the cards, they can kick out anyone not willing to accept the unfair contract... like the Mr Bates at the centre of it all, who lost his position as SPM after standing his ground and refusing to accept liability for blatantly false losses attributed to his branch by the Horizon software. Not every SPM was lucky enough to be in the same position as him.

jiggawatts 3y ago

This issue has been public knowledge for years. How is this possible!?

amiga386 3y ago
The contract to be an SPM makes you liable for all losses, no matter how they are caused, which includes blatant faults of the accounting/ePOS software. It's the ultimate case of moral hazard. Why fix the broken software if it's only some other sucker who's on the hook for it?
- heads 3y ago
  I taught in a private school for a while. In England and Wales the law says that your employment “contract” is simply the verbal, written, or implied agreement to work there and the document enumerating the details — the written statement of employment particulars which is basically the thing you or I would call “the contract” — doesn’t have to be supplied until up to two months after you’ve started work. My employment particulars came the day of the two month deadline. They included a clause that said that the school had the final say on any claim brought by a pupil or their family against me for loss or damage and that any compensation would automatically be deducted from my salary. Unsurprisingly, I did not agree to this clause and did not sign the document! The school also refused to negotiate and I worked there for two years in a kind of contract limbo. I’ve gone back to being a SWE now. I was lucky to not be beholden to one industry like my fellow teachers were. I can completely see how a sub-postmaster, without a fallback career, can get cornered into accepting some ludicrously unfair terms.
  - amiga386 3y ago
    That is pretty awful, and although it's legal to argue over contract terms, including the employer being completely obstinate and your only option being not to agree, you were right not to back down and accept such a one-sided negotiation. In the case of SPMs, as the Post Office holds all the cards, they can kick out anyone not willing to accept the unfair contract... like the Mr Bates at the centre of it all, who lost his position as SPM after standing his ground and refusing to accept liability for blatantly false losses attributed to his branch by the Horizon software. Not every SPM was lucky enough to be in the same position as him.