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> People often assume that if someone has the "right set of beliefs" (whatever that "right set" is) that they're also a good person. IIUC, there are a few aspe

> People often assume that if someone has the "right set of beliefs" (whatever that "right set" is) that they're also a good person. IIUC, there are a few aspects of Christian theology that muddy this issue a bit. I'm probably a bit wrong, so I'd be grateful for any corrections: 1) Christians believe in progressive sanctification. I.e., the Holy Spirit works, over time, to make Christians more like Jesus. So you really should expect true Christians, on average, to gradually become better people. 2) Not everyone professing to be a Christian truly is [0]. As an agnostic, those issues have frustrated my efforts to decide if Christianity generally true. [0] https://www.openbible.info/topics/fake_christians https://www.openbible.info/topics/fake_christians

BobaFloutist 3y ago
>So you really should expect true Christians, on average, to gradually become better people. Only if I accept their beliefs as accurate.
- ACow_Adonis 3y ago
  Or even their professions of belief to actually be something approaching truthful. But there are many incentives, both on a self-deceptive psychology level, and on a societal-wide level, for wanting to be seen as a virtuous and forthright person irrespective of one's actual behaviours or beliefs.
- labster 3y ago
  You shouldn’t have to accept the beliefs, just the virtues, if it’s a religion with a stated goal of making people virtuous (excluding some polytheistic faiths, for instance).
  - kelnos 3y ago
    The poster upthread said that the mechanism for becoming better people was that the Holy Spirit makes it so. If the Holy Spirit doesn't exist, then the only mechanism for self-improvement is one's own ability to make those improvements, consciously. Virtues alone don't make people better. Doing the hard work to introspect and actually make yourself better... that's what makes you better.
arp242 3y ago
I wasn't even talking about Christians specifically, or even religion. Just "beliefs" in the broadest possible sense. I don't know if it's better or worse among Christians (or a subsection of Christians) as opposed to anything else (e.g. political affiliation or beliefs). I am hesitant to start listing examples, as I don't want to side-track this discussion too much. I think there's probably a bit of a general assumption to consider people on "your team" to be "one of the good guys". Perhaps this ties in with how people tend to justify their own actions. I'm not entirely sure where it comes from.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Sometimes it is also used as protective coloration, to blend in and be passed over for scrutiny because of the outwardly visible religious affiliation signalling 'good person here, no need to look any closer'. That's one reason why Catholic priests got away with all their crap for so long.
mylastattempt 3y ago
All logic following from illogical things such as religion, are flawed and utterly useless. Determining anything based on it, is a waste of thought and energy. You'd be better off debating laws within the Star Trek universe.
- all2 3y ago
  > All logic following from illogical things such as religion, are flawed and utterly useless. Interesting take considering the scientific method arose originally as a method for understanding God's consistent and ordered creation. Just because you don't agree with something, or are not otherwise familiar with it, does not mean it is illogical.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
I've yet to meet any Christians who don't contradict other Christians, while being 100% convinced their personal beliefs are correct and all those other interpretations are wrong. So I don't think No True Christian is relevant here. Whatever religion the CEO was cosplaying, the bottom line is that she was involved in organising an aggressive criminal cover-up which caused multiple suicides, unlawful jail terms, and bankruptcies. She must have done this knowingly, because it's unimaginable that information about these problems didn't filter through to the board. Ultimately everyone on the board is personally responsible, and should be treated accordingly.
- PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
  > I've yet to meet any Christians who don't contradict other Christians, while being 100% convinced their personal beliefs are correct and all those other interpretations are wrong. Christian means "Christ-like", it's not surprising that different people have different interpretations of what that means. But my experience has been the stronger someone proclaims their christianity, the less trustworthy they are in general. That may seem paradoxical, but consider that I'm not christian which means they feel more justified in treating me as an out-group. The most die-hard christian I've ever met once got into a fist fight with one of his tenants for being late on the rent. He also, at one point, climbed onto his roof with a compound bow every night for several weeks because some thieves stole a generator and he wanted to catch them coming back. He also one time told me this story about he was doing a job (he had a lawn care business) and this group of mexicans just randomly attacked and beat the crap out of him. No, I didn't believe the ass-whooping was undeserved.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    Jesus himself said that worship of God is a thing that is private. That those who loudly proclaim or make public displays of their faith are straying from the path.
    - ryao 3y ago
      I usually avoid religious discussions, but I really would appreciate a citation on this considering it is the exact opposite of what is actually attested to him: https://biblehub.com/matthew/10-27.htm https://biblehub.com/matthew/10-27.htm
burkaman 3y ago
> you really should expect true Christians, on average, to gradually become better people. I think you can only expect them to gradually become more Christian, and every Christian defines what that means for themselves. There is no definition of goodness that is shared by all Christians.
kelnos 3y ago
I feel like that falls under the "no true scotsman"[0] fallacy. Rather than just branding every self-professed Christian a "fake Christian" if they don't actually gradually become a better person throughout their lives, it's probably more reasonable and useful to recognize that people are flawed, and, despite their sincerely-held beliefs and convictions, often still do bad things. (Of course, magical, invisible spirits that change your personality and values are unlikely to actually exist, so the point is somewhat moot.) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
pavel_lishin 3y ago
> Not everyone professing to be a Christian truly is.* Ah, so they're Scotsmen.
throw7 3y ago
Paul has letters admonishing christians for not being christians. We see everyday that professing christians often are not christians. All I can say is that christ called all of us to love God and love our neighbors.

BobaFloutist 3y ago

>So you really should expect true Christians, on average, to gradually become better people. Only if I accept their beliefs as accurate.

ACow_Adonis 3y ago
Or even their professions of belief to actually be something approaching truthful. But there are many incentives, both on a self-deceptive psychology level, and on a societal-wide level, for wanting to be seen as a virtuous and forthright person irrespective of one's actual behaviours or beliefs.
labster 3y ago
You shouldn’t have to accept the beliefs, just the virtues, if it’s a religion with a stated goal of making people virtuous (excluding some polytheistic faiths, for instance).
- kelnos 3y ago
  The poster upthread said that the mechanism for becoming better people was that the Holy Spirit makes it so. If the Holy Spirit doesn't exist, then the only mechanism for self-improvement is one's own ability to make those improvements, consciously. Virtues alone don't make people better. Doing the hard work to introspect and actually make yourself better... that's what makes you better.

arp242 3y ago

I wasn't even talking about Christians specifically, or even religion. Just "beliefs" in the broadest possible sense. I don't know if it's better or worse among Christians (or a subsection of Christians) as opposed to anything else (e.g. political affiliation or beliefs). I am hesitant to start listing examples, as I don't want to side-track this discussion too much. I think there's probably a bit of a general assumption to consider people on "your team" to be "one of the good guys". Perhaps this ties in with how people tend to justify their own actions. I'm not entirely sure where it comes from.

jacquesm 3y ago
Sometimes it is also used as protective coloration, to blend in and be passed over for scrutiny because of the outwardly visible religious affiliation signalling 'good person here, no need to look any closer'. That's one reason why Catholic priests got away with all their crap for so long.

mylastattempt 3y ago

All logic following from illogical things such as religion, are flawed and utterly useless. Determining anything based on it, is a waste of thought and energy. You'd be better off debating laws within the Star Trek universe.

all2 3y ago
> All logic following from illogical things such as religion, are flawed and utterly useless. Interesting take considering the scientific method arose originally as a method for understanding God's consistent and ordered creation. Just because you don't agree with something, or are not otherwise familiar with it, does not mean it is illogical.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

TheOtherHobbes 3y ago

I've yet to meet any Christians who don't contradict other Christians, while being 100% convinced their personal beliefs are correct and all those other interpretations are wrong. So I don't think No True Christian is relevant here. Whatever religion the CEO was cosplaying, the bottom line is that she was involved in organising an aggressive criminal cover-up which caused multiple suicides, unlawful jail terms, and bankruptcies. She must have done this knowingly, because it's unimaginable that information about these problems didn't filter through to the board. Ultimately everyone on the board is personally responsible, and should be treated accordingly.

PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
> I've yet to meet any Christians who don't contradict other Christians, while being 100% convinced their personal beliefs are correct and all those other interpretations are wrong. Christian means "Christ-like", it's not surprising that different people have different interpretations of what that means. But my experience has been the stronger someone proclaims their christianity, the less trustworthy they are in general. That may seem paradoxical, but consider that I'm not christian which means they feel more justified in treating me as an out-group. The most die-hard christian I've ever met once got into a fist fight with one of his tenants for being late on the rent. He also, at one point, climbed onto his roof with a compound bow every night for several weeks because some thieves stole a generator and he wanted to catch them coming back. He also one time told me this story about he was doing a job (he had a lawn care business) and this group of mexicans just randomly attacked and beat the crap out of him. No, I didn't believe the ass-whooping was undeserved.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  Jesus himself said that worship of God is a thing that is private. That those who loudly proclaim or make public displays of their faith are straying from the path.
  - ryao 3y ago
    I usually avoid religious discussions, but I really would appreciate a citation on this considering it is the exact opposite of what is actually attested to him: https://biblehub.com/matthew/10-27.htm https://biblehub.com/matthew/10-27.htm

burkaman 3y ago

> you really should expect true Christians, on average, to gradually become better people. I think you can only expect them to gradually become more Christian, and every Christian defines what that means for themselves. There is no definition of goodness that is shared by all Christians.

kelnos 3y ago

I feel like that falls under the "no true scotsman"[0] fallacy. Rather than just branding every self-professed Christian a "fake Christian" if they don't actually gradually become a better person throughout their lives, it's probably more reasonable and useful to recognize that people are flawed, and, despite their sincerely-held beliefs and convictions, often still do bad things. (Of course, magical, invisible spirits that change your personality and values are unlikely to actually exist, so the point is somewhat moot.) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

pavel_lishin 3y ago

> Not everyone professing to be a Christian truly is.* Ah, so they're Scotsmen.

throw7 3y ago

Paul has letters admonishing christians for not being christians. We see everyday that professing christians often are not christians. All I can say is that christ called all of us to love God and love our neighbors.