5 ms·

Some of these are valid issues though. I'd consider myself in top 1% when it comes to financial health and I still pay for stuff I forgot to cancel. Some of the

Some of these are valid issues though. I'd consider myself in top 1% when it comes to financial health and I still pay for stuff I forgot to cancel. Some of the reasons: > They make you call between 9 am and 5 pm, and hold for hours to cancel, sometimes even disconnect forcing you to start over, while not offering a callback option. Sometimes there are weeks I absolutely cannot afford to do this because of work. > You buy something, and they tag a "3-4 months free" of another service, which you can't opt out of even if you want to, and then suddenly charge you that extra money on the 5th month. You obviously cancel it, but you still overpaid for a month. > Services that charge you once a year. You forgot to cancel the Xbox subscription because you bought a PS5, got charged a year later. Now you cancel it, but you paid for the year. > Services that make you use or forgo credits that you already paid for if you cancel. (Audible) You want to cancel, but you put it off for another month because now, you need to figure out 5 ebooks to buy. Next month, you end up in the same situation and now you need to figure out 6 ebooks to buy. The point being, you could check all your statements weekly, and still end up spending money on something you forgot about.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> They make you call between 9 am and 5 pm This is customer service. A written notice of termination works for any consumer contract. > but you paid for the year Unpay for it. This is the utility of credit cards.
- rectang 3y ago
  > Unpay for it. This is the utility of credit cards. That's a facile answer. You're extremely well educated on this matter and know full well the downsides of "unpaying". EDIT: see sibling comment from "notaustinpowers" for an explanation of the downsides (thanks!). https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39060260 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39060260
  - boredtofears 3y ago
    What are the downsides of disputing a charge?
    - HumblyTossed 3y ago
      If you unpay for, say, YouTube, I'm pretty sure Google will straight up delete you.
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      "Most places have segments in their contract that state if you do a chargeback or block a payment, they will terminate your account, and payment providers can block that card from being used on their service in the future." Also, depending on the agreement, you can be sent to collections (gym memberships are notorious for this). The chargeback doesn't supersede the vendor's control of access to the service or potential legal/debt obligations. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39060260 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39060260
      - jjav 3y ago
        > Most places have segments in their contract that state if you do a chargeback or block a payment, they will terminate your account, When terminating my account is exactly what I want, that's totally fine. This does highlight yet another problem with consolidating to huge companies. You'll never be able to charge back to a behemot like amazon or google, they'll just erase you off large parts of the internet which would be problematic. But with smaller vendors that you are trying to get rid of and never want anything to do with them again, it works wonderfully.
  - idopmstuff 3y ago
    Use a temporary credit card number that's only authorized for one payment. When it doesn't work the second year, they'll let you know you need to pay. Sign up and immediately cancel/turn off billing, so you aren't charged again next year (again, they'll send you a bunch of notices ahead of the end of your service). Put a calendar reminder in for 11.5 months out from when you sign up. In Slack, /remind me in 11.5 months to cancel X service.
    - rectang 3y ago
      My tech-hating mom is currently spending hours, maybe even days setting up billpay through her bank so she doesn't have to give companies her credit card info for subscriptions. She's been burned too many times trying and failing to cancel subscriptions. But reading suggestions like yours, apparently it's all on people like my poor mom to outwit corporations with multi-million-dollar budgets dedicated to screwing her over. (And yes I'm helping, but precious few tech-noob elders have an engineer in the family.)
      - jjav 3y ago
        > My tech-hating mom is currently spending hours, maybe even days setting up billpay through her bank so she doesn't have to give companies her credit card info for subscriptions. She's been burned too many times trying and failing to cancel subscriptions. Why? That's much worse. If anything is going to do a recurring charge to me, I want it to go through a credit card which offers a layer of indirection. I never authorize automatic billing directly to a bank account, then the money is truly gone. With a credit card I can always protest the charge and have had to do this with particularly difficult businesses a few times.
        rectang 3y ago
        > Why? That's much worse. Congratulations, HNer — you're more tech savvy than my mom. Perhaps you're volunteering to help vulnerable seniors like her navigate the Hobbesian nightmare of subscriptions? I applaud your initiative, but if you're new to this, let me caution you: they don't always understand or follow the advice you give them precisely. Even if they are trying their best.
- notaustinpowers 3y ago
  > This is a customer service. A written notice of termination works for any consumer contract. Not entirely. Most places don't accept cancellations over email, or require certified mail for cancellations, which just means now you have to go to the post office between 9-5. > Unpay for it. This is the utility of credit cards. Most places have segments in their contract that state if you do a chargeback or block a payment, they will terminate your account, and payment providers can block that card from being used on their service in the future.
  - squeaky-clean 3y ago
    Not only can they terminate your account and potentially block that card in the future across other services using the same payment provider, more expensive subscriptions like a gym WILL continue accruing a bill for you and will send it to collections which hurts your credit score.
    - bluGill 3y ago
      You can dispute that with the credit services though. Which probably won't get you anywhere but it is worth doing. Make sure you give them negative feedback with the BBB if canceling is too hard. Though the business model of most gyms (except the expensive ones) is to get you to enroll and then not come, so they won't care.
      - olyjohn 3y ago
        If it won't get you anywhere... then how is it worth doing? What a waste of time.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > Most places don't accept cancellations over email, or require certified mail for cancellations E-mail yes. But I've never seen a letter mailed fail. Especially if you Cc your state's consumer protection regulator. > if you do a chargeback or block a payment, they will terminate your account Wait, what are we trying to do?
- HumblyTossed 3y ago
  > This is customer service. A written notice of termination works for any consumer contract. Next time you're in a well trafficked area, ask 20 people if they know they can do this.
  - teg4n_ 3y ago
    Also who would you even send it to? How do you guarantee they receive it? If you do certified mail that is a cost and another thing to take up your time.
    - jjav 3y ago
      True, although I'd rather pay the few dollars for that and the 10 minutes in the post office, than spend endless hours on hold just to be hung up on and start again.
      - teg4n_ 3y ago
        That’s assuming the letter even works in having the subscription cancelled. Regardless of whether or not it should work, I am certainly not confident such a thing would be handled properly. If it isn’t then you are back to customer service or i guess hiring a lawyer.
      - jjoonathan 3y ago
        10 minutes during weekday business hours plus 30 for commute and 20 minutes of standing in line if you go at noon. Also, the discoverability of this workflow is complete dogshit. None of this is a problem for me, but I fully understand why dishonest businessfolk love to exploit the hell out of these "tiny conditions" and then turn around and pretend they don't understand why they are a big deal.
        jjav 3y ago
        > Also, the discoverability of this workflow is complete dogshit. Yes, the correct solution is certainly to pass laws that force companies to enable easy and quick unsubscribe process. Just commenting on that between the two bad choices of hours and hours on hold, or 10 minutes in the post office, I'll take the latter.
- PaulHoule 3y ago
  There ought to be some legislation to modify the credit card system such that all your recurring subscriptions are managed through your payment provider (say credit card web portal) so you can see a list and cancel them with one click.
  - njarboe 3y ago
    I have one credit card I only use for recurring charges. That helps me easily see how much I spend each month and notice when yearly charges happen, etc. Some services will even rebate if you cancel soon after the yearly charge happens.
    - PaulHoule 3y ago
      Most of them will, particularly the sketchier ones like online dating sites. It is worth it to them to let you cancel a subscription rather than have to deal with chargebacks, lawsuits, bad publicity, etc.
barbazoo 3y ago
Two of those can be fixed with a simple calendar entry. We do that with subscriptions but also with things like AirBNB bookings where you can cancel up to x weeks in advance.
- slumberlust 3y ago
  That's cool that you've found a system that works to avoid the abuse, but it's still abusive.
  - brvsft 3y ago
    Which part is abusive? I might view that last item as a sort of dark pattern (exploiting the sunk cost fallacy), but I still fail to see how it's abusive. If you're not using the service, cancel your subscription? Is everything you don't like even slightly now qualified as ABUSE?
    - bobthepanda 3y ago
      The hostile “you must call into an understaffed call center and hold for several hours” is definitely abusive. I believe NYT was particularly bad about this in the past.
    - olyjohn 3y ago
      You acknowledge it's a dark pattern, but then excuse it. Dark patterns are 100% abuse.
tomcar288 3y ago
my solution to this is to not have any subscriptions except for property taxes, garbage, utilities, insurance and phone plan. and I absolutely avoid 30 day free trials (if they ask for credit card info) like the plague. the moment I see a credit card number entry field, I close the browser tab immediately. but, I'd like to know, which companies have onerous cancellation policies?
- dataangel 3y ago
  > which companies have onerous cancellation policies? gyms
- EwanG 3y ago
  Bloomberg - Had a subscription and saw the renewal coming up. Decided to cancel, but you can't do it yourself - you have to go through their service desk and of course they try five ways from Sunday to get you to reup with a cheaper plan (that then jumps to the full price after 1 to 3 months). Spectrum (previously Time Warner Cable) - To cancel you need your account number (both the TW and the Spectrum ones for folks who were converted) and your PIN for each - which you likely setup only once and may well not have realized you needed since it's only for starting service and cancelling. Don't have them? You can't cancel. Let me emphasize that again, if you don't give them the right number they will continue to charge you until your credit card expires, and then send you to collections. I am fastidious about account info and had mine, but some of my neighbors were less so. Were you looking for a full list (I have more) or just wanted a couple of examples?
Spivak 3y ago
Most of them could be solved by our CC system putting people in control. Wanna cancel NYT, stop payment and let them come to you if they want to bother. The fact that people can just take money from our accounts on a whim and we have to beg them to get it back or stop is a ridiculous system. I would much rather deal with invoices. The only system where they just charge you I like is the usage model. I get a bill from AWS, OpenAI, and Backblaze every month for a few dollars but if I stop using them the bill drops to $0.
- porridgeraisin 3y ago
  This is how UPI-based subscriptions work in India. You open your UPI app, go to the autopay section, and see all your subscriptions, whether it is one-time mandates or as-presented recurring ones. You can just cancel there and it's done.
YeBanKo 3y ago
My solution is to try to subscribe through Apple as much as possible, even if it's more expensive. Unified interface, always can cancel online and I think they are required to let you use it until the end of the billing cycle if you have been charged. Not always possible, but when it is, it's often worth it.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> They make you call between 9 am and 5 pm This is customer service. A written notice of termination works for any consumer contract. > but you paid for the year Unpay for it. This is the utility of credit cards.

rectang 3y ago
> Unpay for it. This is the utility of credit cards. That's a facile answer. You're extremely well educated on this matter and know full well the downsides of "unpaying". EDIT: see sibling comment from "notaustinpowers" for an explanation of the downsides (thanks!). https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39060260 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39060260
- boredtofears 3y ago
  What are the downsides of disputing a charge?
  - HumblyTossed 3y ago
    If you unpay for, say, YouTube, I'm pretty sure Google will straight up delete you.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    "Most places have segments in their contract that state if you do a chargeback or block a payment, they will terminate your account, and payment providers can block that card from being used on their service in the future." Also, depending on the agreement, you can be sent to collections (gym memberships are notorious for this). The chargeback doesn't supersede the vendor's control of access to the service or potential legal/debt obligations. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39060260 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39060260
    - jjav 3y ago
      > Most places have segments in their contract that state if you do a chargeback or block a payment, they will terminate your account, When terminating my account is exactly what I want, that's totally fine. This does highlight yet another problem with consolidating to huge companies. You'll never be able to charge back to a behemot like amazon or google, they'll just erase you off large parts of the internet which would be problematic. But with smaller vendors that you are trying to get rid of and never want anything to do with them again, it works wonderfully.
- idopmstuff 3y ago
  Use a temporary credit card number that's only authorized for one payment. When it doesn't work the second year, they'll let you know you need to pay. Sign up and immediately cancel/turn off billing, so you aren't charged again next year (again, they'll send you a bunch of notices ahead of the end of your service). Put a calendar reminder in for 11.5 months out from when you sign up. In Slack, /remind me in 11.5 months to cancel X service.
  - rectang 3y ago
    My tech-hating mom is currently spending hours, maybe even days setting up billpay through her bank so she doesn't have to give companies her credit card info for subscriptions. She's been burned too many times trying and failing to cancel subscriptions. But reading suggestions like yours, apparently it's all on people like my poor mom to outwit corporations with multi-million-dollar budgets dedicated to screwing her over. (And yes I'm helping, but precious few tech-noob elders have an engineer in the family.)
    - jjav 3y ago
      > My tech-hating mom is currently spending hours, maybe even days setting up billpay through her bank so she doesn't have to give companies her credit card info for subscriptions. She's been burned too many times trying and failing to cancel subscriptions. Why? That's much worse. If anything is going to do a recurring charge to me, I want it to go through a credit card which offers a layer of indirection. I never authorize automatic billing directly to a bank account, then the money is truly gone. With a credit card I can always protest the charge and have had to do this with particularly difficult businesses a few times.
      - rectang 3y ago
        > Why? That's much worse. Congratulations, HNer — you're more tech savvy than my mom. Perhaps you're volunteering to help vulnerable seniors like her navigate the Hobbesian nightmare of subscriptions? I applaud your initiative, but if you're new to this, let me caution you: they don't always understand or follow the advice you give them precisely. Even if they are trying their best.
notaustinpowers 3y ago
> This is a customer service. A written notice of termination works for any consumer contract. Not entirely. Most places don't accept cancellations over email, or require certified mail for cancellations, which just means now you have to go to the post office between 9-5. > Unpay for it. This is the utility of credit cards. Most places have segments in their contract that state if you do a chargeback or block a payment, they will terminate your account, and payment providers can block that card from being used on their service in the future.
- squeaky-clean 3y ago
  Not only can they terminate your account and potentially block that card in the future across other services using the same payment provider, more expensive subscriptions like a gym WILL continue accruing a bill for you and will send it to collections which hurts your credit score.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    You can dispute that with the credit services though. Which probably won't get you anywhere but it is worth doing. Make sure you give them negative feedback with the BBB if canceling is too hard. Though the business model of most gyms (except the expensive ones) is to get you to enroll and then not come, so they won't care.
    - olyjohn 3y ago
      If it won't get you anywhere... then how is it worth doing? What a waste of time.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > Most places don't accept cancellations over email, or require certified mail for cancellations E-mail yes. But I've never seen a letter mailed fail. Especially if you Cc your state's consumer protection regulator. > if you do a chargeback or block a payment, they will terminate your account Wait, what are we trying to do?
HumblyTossed 3y ago
> This is customer service. A written notice of termination works for any consumer contract. Next time you're in a well trafficked area, ask 20 people if they know they can do this.
- teg4n_ 3y ago
  Also who would you even send it to? How do you guarantee they receive it? If you do certified mail that is a cost and another thing to take up your time.
  - jjav 3y ago
    True, although I'd rather pay the few dollars for that and the 10 minutes in the post office, than spend endless hours on hold just to be hung up on and start again.
    - teg4n_ 3y ago
      That’s assuming the letter even works in having the subscription cancelled. Regardless of whether or not it should work, I am certainly not confident such a thing would be handled properly. If it isn’t then you are back to customer service or i guess hiring a lawyer.
    - jjoonathan 3y ago
      10 minutes during weekday business hours plus 30 for commute and 20 minutes of standing in line if you go at noon. Also, the discoverability of this workflow is complete dogshit. None of this is a problem for me, but I fully understand why dishonest businessfolk love to exploit the hell out of these "tiny conditions" and then turn around and pretend they don't understand why they are a big deal.
      - jjav 3y ago
        > Also, the discoverability of this workflow is complete dogshit. Yes, the correct solution is certainly to pass laws that force companies to enable easy and quick unsubscribe process. Just commenting on that between the two bad choices of hours and hours on hold, or 10 minutes in the post office, I'll take the latter.
PaulHoule 3y ago
There ought to be some legislation to modify the credit card system such that all your recurring subscriptions are managed through your payment provider (say credit card web portal) so you can see a list and cancel them with one click.
- njarboe 3y ago
  I have one credit card I only use for recurring charges. That helps me easily see how much I spend each month and notice when yearly charges happen, etc. Some services will even rebate if you cancel soon after the yearly charge happens.
  - PaulHoule 3y ago
    Most of them will, particularly the sketchier ones like online dating sites. It is worth it to them to let you cancel a subscription rather than have to deal with chargebacks, lawsuits, bad publicity, etc.

barbazoo 3y ago

Two of those can be fixed with a simple calendar entry. We do that with subscriptions but also with things like AirBNB bookings where you can cancel up to x weeks in advance.

slumberlust 3y ago
That's cool that you've found a system that works to avoid the abuse, but it's still abusive.
- brvsft 3y ago
  Which part is abusive? I might view that last item as a sort of dark pattern (exploiting the sunk cost fallacy), but I still fail to see how it's abusive. If you're not using the service, cancel your subscription? Is everything you don't like even slightly now qualified as ABUSE?
  - bobthepanda 3y ago
    The hostile “you must call into an understaffed call center and hold for several hours” is definitely abusive. I believe NYT was particularly bad about this in the past.
  - olyjohn 3y ago
    You acknowledge it's a dark pattern, but then excuse it. Dark patterns are 100% abuse.

tomcar288 3y ago

my solution to this is to not have any subscriptions except for property taxes, garbage, utilities, insurance and phone plan. and I absolutely avoid 30 day free trials (if they ask for credit card info) like the plague. the moment I see a credit card number entry field, I close the browser tab immediately. but, I'd like to know, which companies have onerous cancellation policies?

dataangel 3y ago
> which companies have onerous cancellation policies? gyms
EwanG 3y ago
Bloomberg - Had a subscription and saw the renewal coming up. Decided to cancel, but you can't do it yourself - you have to go through their service desk and of course they try five ways from Sunday to get you to reup with a cheaper plan (that then jumps to the full price after 1 to 3 months). Spectrum (previously Time Warner Cable) - To cancel you need your account number (both the TW and the Spectrum ones for folks who were converted) and your PIN for each - which you likely setup only once and may well not have realized you needed since it's only for starting service and cancelling. Don't have them? You can't cancel. Let me emphasize that again, if you don't give them the right number they will continue to charge you until your credit card expires, and then send you to collections. I am fastidious about account info and had mine, but some of my neighbors were less so. Were you looking for a full list (I have more) or just wanted a couple of examples?

Spivak 3y ago

Most of them could be solved by our CC system putting people in control. Wanna cancel NYT, stop payment and let them come to you if they want to bother. The fact that people can just take money from our accounts on a whim and we have to beg them to get it back or stop is a ridiculous system. I would much rather deal with invoices. The only system where they just charge you I like is the usage model. I get a bill from AWS, OpenAI, and Backblaze every month for a few dollars but if I stop using them the bill drops to $0.

porridgeraisin 3y ago
This is how UPI-based subscriptions work in India. You open your UPI app, go to the autopay section, and see all your subscriptions, whether it is one-time mandates or as-presented recurring ones. You can just cancel there and it's done.

YeBanKo 3y ago

My solution is to try to subscribe through Apple as much as possible, even if it's more expensive. Unified interface, always can cancel online and I think they are required to let you use it until the end of the billing cycle if you have been charged. Not always possible, but when it is, it's often worth it.