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Germany's parliament approves easing dual citizenship

31 points by nixass 3y ago

dixie_land 3y ago
IMO immigration would focus on merits AND integration more than length of residency. In the past by physically traveling and being in another country is a testament of the financial means and the willingness to adopt the new culture. Nowadays traveling is much easier and many immigrants are simply, put it harshly, colonizing the foreign country instead of adopting it.
- aqme28 3y ago
  That's sort of built-in already. To stay in Germany for the requisite five years, you're likely going to need a sponsored visa or some other kind of job-based visa (e.g. their freelance visa).
  - intrepidpar 3y ago
    Or you apply for asylum and stay forever regardless of the outcome.
    - jstummbillig 3y ago
      How does applying for asylum grant the ability to "stay forever regardless of the outcome"?
      - intrepidpar 3y ago
        Because once you're inside the country you will never get kicked out, unless you actively cooperate with the authorities.
        lispm 3y ago
        depends, at first the right to stay is time limited
        jstummbillig 3y ago
        To those interested in the actual data: On June 2023 roughly 280k failed asylum seekers were met with a a yearly deportation volume of around 16k or 6%. Note that "failed asylum seekers" does, for the most part, not mean people actually resisting deportation in any illegal/violent way, but mostly consists of people who are being granted a sort of amnesty ("Duldung") for various reasons in line with german law. This only leaves 54k people that would actually be candidate for deportation in June 2023, which increases the deportation rate to roughly 30%. At this pace deportation for the average failed asylum seeker that is actually traget of deportation shrinks to 3 years. * https://www.dw.com/en/germany-migrant-deportations-rise-sharply/a-66578402#:~:text=Deportations%20of%20failed%20asylum%20seekers%20increased%20by%20more,deported%2C%201%2C664%20were%20women%2C%20and%201%2C375%20were%20minors https://www.dw.com/en/germany-migrant-deportations-rise-shar....
    - aqme28 3y ago
      I imagine that that's a relatively small percent of immigration, and should follow its own separate rules based more on humanitarian needs.
- j_maffe 3y ago
  The description of people migrating from developing countries (that to a large extent are still reeling from the West's previous colonization efforts and current neo-colonialist control) as "colonizing" the foreign country angers me on so many levels I can't even explain it in words. I hope one day humanity will surpass its empathic barrier of societies. It might be too much to hope for, I suppose.
  - ganeshkrishnan 3y ago
    as long as inequality exists most people will dehumanize other humans for attempting to achieve equality. And then these same people will cry hoarse about Jeff bezos and Zuckerberg and bill gates etc. "When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression." There is still a silver lining though. EU (and specifically Germany) ruined any optimistic future of theirs by severing energy with Russia and allowing US to bomb the nordstream pipeline. The effects of de-industrialization due to higher energy costs along with reduced usage of Euro in international usage is not going to paint a pretty picture for EU in the long term future. This allows third world countries to equalize quickly and hopefully in a generation from now we have less dehumanizing language for people trying to seek a better life for their families.
  - edgyquant 3y ago
    That’s exactly what is happening though, regardless of how much it is angering you. Millions of people moving to another country is colonization no matter how you want to spin it.
    - piva00 3y ago
      Not exactly, people moving without trying to take control is just settling, when they try to overtake control instead of assimilating into the culture they immigrated to then I think it can be considered some form of colonisation.
      - nescioquid 3y ago
        In The Prince, Machiavelli describes the use of settlers to exert indirect control over an area. One benefit of this approach is that the values and attitudes of the settlers will spread to or exert influence over the locals. At the very least, it destabilizes the existing order. If a group doesn't assimilate, it looks like a ghetto or a "colony". Settling, on the other hand, is inherently about control.
lostmsu 3y ago
Any thoughts on Fat FIRE (e g. retirement on investments) in Germany with a family with 2 kids under 5? Generally smaller eastern EU countries would be much easier on the wallet, but the quality of education and the need to learn irrelevant language bother me.
- keiferski 3y ago
  If your attitude is that a local language is "irrelevant", I don't think you're going to have a good time living abroad, no matter where you end up.
  - kvdveer 3y ago
    Netherlands might work for them then. 15% of people here don't speak Dutch well enough to use it as a primary language, and this is generally accepted.
    - arlcode 3y ago
      I wonder whether these are communities that would accept him or that he wants to belong to. They speak a language and it's probably not his either.
  - shortrounddev2 3y ago
    Not him, but I think there are languages which are important out of their home countries: many east Asian languages, Spanish, Arabic, Hindi. Languages which are widely spoken in other countries as a lingua franca as well as by immigrant communities. Outside of an EU perspective, German isn't a very useful language to know across the world economy. If you're going to move somewhere where your kids will grow up learning the language, I don't think it's a bad idea to weigh the value of them learning German vs. Chinese vs. Swahili and how it will help them in the future
    - keiferski 3y ago
      Sure, but it's a bit absurd and disrespectful to consider moving to a country while calling their national language "irrelevant."
nemo44x 3y ago
What’s the alternative? Everyone knows it’s the eventual ruin and end of Germany (and much of the West has the same problem) but that’s still generations away. The current existing people who understand that the entire government run social system can’t work unless more people can pay into it are obviously making the best out of 2 bad choices. And the locals aren’t reproducing so they’ve essentially have said that the idea of Germany (and more generally the west) isn’t important. At least not as much as ensuring they can continue to receive state run benefits that only work with growing populations generally. So what’s the solution if not this? The entire developed world is seeing a drop in fertility and reproduction so they’ll all eventually be fighting for people from places that are - Africa and Middle East and some other regions.
- ReptileMan 3y ago
  >So what’s the solution if not this? The entire developed world is seeing a drop in fertility and reproduction so they’ll all eventually be fighting for people from places that are - Africa and Middle East and some other regions. Gulf states have awesome solution. You can go there and make money, never path to citizenship. If you are expat - you can make a lot of money and live well. If you are low skill laborer - well they can improve their conditions. But I no see problem with importing people just to work, send money home and then send them back.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- aqme28 3y ago
  > Everyone knows it’s the eventual ruin and end of Germany This is not an "Everyone knows..." Unfortunately, the major right-wing party wants to reduce immigration and actually remove German citizenship from non "native" Germans with multiple passports.
  - newsclues 3y ago
    Do you think those people don’t know or just have a different solution to the same problems?
MarcusE1W 3y ago
Does anyone understand from this if born Germans are also allowed to take a second citizenship in another country?
- arlcode 3y ago
  As far as I understand it does indeed. However Germans could already become dual citizens of a European Union country (and Switzerland) so many were covered under the old law (that will remain).
- barbazoo 3y ago
  You were always able to do this, you just needed a Beibehaltigungsgenehmigung. That requirement is also being dropped but only for new cases. If you already lost your citizenship you're still SOL.
nicbou 3y ago
Pretty much every immigrant friend of mine (including myself) has been waiting for this. It's really good news and it means a lot to us, especially those of us with an equally strong citizenship.
- netsharc 3y ago
  What exactly are the changes, or what will they be? Even this article is using qualifiers like "open up the possibility of dual citizenship". > Dual nationality is usually only allowed for citizens of other EU countries or Switzerland, although it is permitted for other immigrants in certain exceptional cases. Yes, but that's the law as it's been, 1 exception is e.g. one can't renounce one's Turkish citizenship, so Turks granted a German citizenship become dual citizens. As far as I've read the changes will apply to children born with dual citizenships, not adults who want to gain the German one, AFAIK they (if they're not EU/Swiss) still have to renounce their old citizenship when able to. Edit: OK according to this[1] the AFAIK above no longer applies now. [1] https://www.juraforum.de/news/doppelte-staatsbuergerschaft-in-deutschland-neuerungen-ab-2024_259459 https://www.juraforum.de/news/doppelte-staatsbuergerschaft-i...
  - nicbou 3y ago
    It means that you won't need to get rid of your previous citizenship to become a German citizen.
barbazoo 3y ago
Here's the age pyramid including forecasts which gives some context as to why Germany desperately needs to make their population younger or increase age of retirement. https://service.destatis.de/bevoelkerungspyramide/index.html https://service.destatis.de/bevoelkerungspyramide/index.html
- jstummbillig 3y ago
  I am so confused about how this topic is discussed. I think it's completely backwards. If I was a nationalist in any country with roughly the demographic shape of Germany (so, most of the wealthy ones), I would regard open immigration as the highest possible leverage move, to the point, where I (not, in fact, being a nationalist) actually feel bad about the devastating effects this is ultimately going to have a few years down the line for the countries these people are leaving behind. Bar an AI miracle, everyone is going to need bodies, and the bodies they are going to produce, to avoid societal breakdown. By current looks, it is potentially the scarcest resource of the future. I understand that immigration of unskilled people is a little off from the "skilled immigration" pipe dream and less convenient, but are people really that confused about the slightly longer term and exponentially scarier cost of no immigration? These countries have a system that, while not perfect, is the most excellent at creating skilled enough humans. Letting anyone willing and able to produce a child in the country, that you can then pump through that system, is the absolute cheapest and most realistic way you are ever going to get the amount of bodies you are going to need to avoid a total demographic disaster.
  - voisin 3y ago
    Canada is struggling with this now. There is a balance between fixing demographic issues, and exacerbating existing inequality (housing-haves vs have-nots) and infrastructure inadequacies (our medical system is failing with too few doctors, nurses, etc to support existing population, let alone all the newcomers). So it isn’t like opening the immigration floodgates is a magic bullet. There are definitely growing pains and it ideally is something that is phased in rather than a sudden reaction to a problem that should’ve been foreseen for decades.
Havoc 3y ago
Wohoo. Been waiting for this. Opposite direction though - want UK citizenship without losing German. That was previous possibly but require submitting a rationale/motivation letter of some sort.
- vinni2 3y ago
  Are you sure it is both directions? The article doesn’t say anything about Germans getting other citizenships. I am genuinely curious.
  - Havoc 3y ago
    I believe so based on coverage read but anyone in scope should confirm independently. Also, the official article that deals with loss of German citizenship on gaining another now has a banner thing at the top pointing to this new law (without saying anything too solid) Would frankly also be quite weird for German law to favour "foreigners" over native Germans by having it go one direction only. [0] https://uk.diplo.de/uk-de/02/beibehaltung/2450392 https://uk.diplo.de/uk-de/02/beibehaltung/2450392

31 points by nixass 3y ago

IMO immigration would focus on merits AND integration more than length of residency. In the past by physically traveling and being in another country is a testament of the financial means and the willingness to adopt the new culture. Nowadays traveling is much easier and many immigrants are simply, put it harshly, colonizing the foreign country instead of adopting it.

aqme28 3y ago
That's sort of built-in already. To stay in Germany for the requisite five years, you're likely going to need a sponsored visa or some other kind of job-based visa (e.g. their freelance visa).
- intrepidpar 3y ago
  Or you apply for asylum and stay forever regardless of the outcome.
  - jstummbillig 3y ago
    How does applying for asylum grant the ability to "stay forever regardless of the outcome"?
    - intrepidpar 3y ago
      Because once you're inside the country you will never get kicked out, unless you actively cooperate with the authorities.
      - lispm 3y ago
        depends, at first the right to stay is time limited
      - jstummbillig 3y ago
        To those interested in the actual data: On June 2023 roughly 280k failed asylum seekers were met with a a yearly deportation volume of around 16k or 6%. Note that "failed asylum seekers" does, for the most part, not mean people actually resisting deportation in any illegal/violent way, but mostly consists of people who are being granted a sort of amnesty ("Duldung") for various reasons in line with german law. This only leaves 54k people that would actually be candidate for deportation in June 2023, which increases the deportation rate to roughly 30%. At this pace deportation for the average failed asylum seeker that is actually traget of deportation shrinks to 3 years. * https://www.dw.com/en/germany-migrant-deportations-rise-sharply/a-66578402#:~:text=Deportations%20of%20failed%20asylum%20seekers%20increased%20by%20more,deported%2C%201%2C664%20were%20women%2C%20and%201%2C375%20were%20minors https://www.dw.com/en/germany-migrant-deportations-rise-shar....
  - aqme28 3y ago
    I imagine that that's a relatively small percent of immigration, and should follow its own separate rules based more on humanitarian needs.
j_maffe 3y ago
The description of people migrating from developing countries (that to a large extent are still reeling from the West's previous colonization efforts and current neo-colonialist control) as "colonizing" the foreign country angers me on so many levels I can't even explain it in words. I hope one day humanity will surpass its empathic barrier of societies. It might be too much to hope for, I suppose.
- ganeshkrishnan 3y ago
  as long as inequality exists most people will dehumanize other humans for attempting to achieve equality. And then these same people will cry hoarse about Jeff bezos and Zuckerberg and bill gates etc. "When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression." There is still a silver lining though. EU (and specifically Germany) ruined any optimistic future of theirs by severing energy with Russia and allowing US to bomb the nordstream pipeline. The effects of de-industrialization due to higher energy costs along with reduced usage of Euro in international usage is not going to paint a pretty picture for EU in the long term future. This allows third world countries to equalize quickly and hopefully in a generation from now we have less dehumanizing language for people trying to seek a better life for their families.
- edgyquant 3y ago
  That’s exactly what is happening though, regardless of how much it is angering you. Millions of people moving to another country is colonization no matter how you want to spin it.
  - piva00 3y ago
    Not exactly, people moving without trying to take control is just settling, when they try to overtake control instead of assimilating into the culture they immigrated to then I think it can be considered some form of colonisation.
    - nescioquid 3y ago
      In The Prince, Machiavelli describes the use of settlers to exert indirect control over an area. One benefit of this approach is that the values and attitudes of the settlers will spread to or exert influence over the locals. At the very least, it destabilizes the existing order. If a group doesn't assimilate, it looks like a ghetto or a "colony". Settling, on the other hand, is inherently about control.

lostmsu 3y ago

Any thoughts on Fat FIRE (e g. retirement on investments) in Germany with a family with 2 kids under 5? Generally smaller eastern EU countries would be much easier on the wallet, but the quality of education and the need to learn irrelevant language bother me.

keiferski 3y ago
If your attitude is that a local language is "irrelevant", I don't think you're going to have a good time living abroad, no matter where you end up.
- kvdveer 3y ago
  Netherlands might work for them then. 15% of people here don't speak Dutch well enough to use it as a primary language, and this is generally accepted.
  - arlcode 3y ago
    I wonder whether these are communities that would accept him or that he wants to belong to. They speak a language and it's probably not his either.
- shortrounddev2 3y ago
  Not him, but I think there are languages which are important out of their home countries: many east Asian languages, Spanish, Arabic, Hindi. Languages which are widely spoken in other countries as a lingua franca as well as by immigrant communities. Outside of an EU perspective, German isn't a very useful language to know across the world economy. If you're going to move somewhere where your kids will grow up learning the language, I don't think it's a bad idea to weigh the value of them learning German vs. Chinese vs. Swahili and how it will help them in the future
  - keiferski 3y ago
    Sure, but it's a bit absurd and disrespectful to consider moving to a country while calling their national language "irrelevant."

nemo44x 3y ago

What’s the alternative? Everyone knows it’s the eventual ruin and end of Germany (and much of the West has the same problem) but that’s still generations away. The current existing people who understand that the entire government run social system can’t work unless more people can pay into it are obviously making the best out of 2 bad choices. And the locals aren’t reproducing so they’ve essentially have said that the idea of Germany (and more generally the west) isn’t important. At least not as much as ensuring they can continue to receive state run benefits that only work with growing populations generally. So what’s the solution if not this? The entire developed world is seeing a drop in fertility and reproduction so they’ll all eventually be fighting for people from places that are - Africa and Middle East and some other regions.

ReptileMan 3y ago
>So what’s the solution if not this? The entire developed world is seeing a drop in fertility and reproduction so they’ll all eventually be fighting for people from places that are - Africa and Middle East and some other regions. Gulf states have awesome solution. You can go there and make money, never path to citizenship. If you are expat - you can make a lot of money and live well. If you are low skill laborer - well they can improve their conditions. But I no see problem with importing people just to work, send money home and then send them back.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
aqme28 3y ago
> Everyone knows it’s the eventual ruin and end of Germany This is not an "Everyone knows..." Unfortunately, the major right-wing party wants to reduce immigration and actually remove German citizenship from non "native" Germans with multiple passports.
- newsclues 3y ago
  Do you think those people don’t know or just have a different solution to the same problems?

MarcusE1W 3y ago

Does anyone understand from this if born Germans are also allowed to take a second citizenship in another country?

arlcode 3y ago
As far as I understand it does indeed. However Germans could already become dual citizens of a European Union country (and Switzerland) so many were covered under the old law (that will remain).
barbazoo 3y ago
You were always able to do this, you just needed a Beibehaltigungsgenehmigung. That requirement is also being dropped but only for new cases. If you already lost your citizenship you're still SOL.

nicbou 3y ago

Pretty much every immigrant friend of mine (including myself) has been waiting for this. It's really good news and it means a lot to us, especially those of us with an equally strong citizenship.

netsharc 3y ago
What exactly are the changes, or what will they be? Even this article is using qualifiers like "open up the possibility of dual citizenship". > Dual nationality is usually only allowed for citizens of other EU countries or Switzerland, although it is permitted for other immigrants in certain exceptional cases. Yes, but that's the law as it's been, 1 exception is e.g. one can't renounce one's Turkish citizenship, so Turks granted a German citizenship become dual citizens. As far as I've read the changes will apply to children born with dual citizenships, not adults who want to gain the German one, AFAIK they (if they're not EU/Swiss) still have to renounce their old citizenship when able to. Edit: OK according to this[1] the AFAIK above no longer applies now. [1] https://www.juraforum.de/news/doppelte-staatsbuergerschaft-in-deutschland-neuerungen-ab-2024_259459 https://www.juraforum.de/news/doppelte-staatsbuergerschaft-i...
- nicbou 3y ago
  It means that you won't need to get rid of your previous citizenship to become a German citizen.

barbazoo 3y ago

Here's the age pyramid including forecasts which gives some context as to why Germany desperately needs to make their population younger or increase age of retirement. https://service.destatis.de/bevoelkerungspyramide/index.html https://service.destatis.de/bevoelkerungspyramide/index.html

jstummbillig 3y ago
I am so confused about how this topic is discussed. I think it's completely backwards. If I was a nationalist in any country with roughly the demographic shape of Germany (so, most of the wealthy ones), I would regard open immigration as the highest possible leverage move, to the point, where I (not, in fact, being a nationalist) actually feel bad about the devastating effects this is ultimately going to have a few years down the line for the countries these people are leaving behind. Bar an AI miracle, everyone is going to need bodies, and the bodies they are going to produce, to avoid societal breakdown. By current looks, it is potentially the scarcest resource of the future. I understand that immigration of unskilled people is a little off from the "skilled immigration" pipe dream and less convenient, but are people really that confused about the slightly longer term and exponentially scarier cost of no immigration? These countries have a system that, while not perfect, is the most excellent at creating skilled enough humans. Letting anyone willing and able to produce a child in the country, that you can then pump through that system, is the absolute cheapest and most realistic way you are ever going to get the amount of bodies you are going to need to avoid a total demographic disaster.
- voisin 3y ago
  Canada is struggling with this now. There is a balance between fixing demographic issues, and exacerbating existing inequality (housing-haves vs have-nots) and infrastructure inadequacies (our medical system is failing with too few doctors, nurses, etc to support existing population, let alone all the newcomers). So it isn’t like opening the immigration floodgates is a magic bullet. There are definitely growing pains and it ideally is something that is phased in rather than a sudden reaction to a problem that should’ve been foreseen for decades.

Havoc 3y ago

Wohoo. Been waiting for this. Opposite direction though - want UK citizenship without losing German. That was previous possibly but require submitting a rationale/motivation letter of some sort.

vinni2 3y ago
Are you sure it is both directions? The article doesn’t say anything about Germans getting other citizenships. I am genuinely curious.
- Havoc 3y ago
  I believe so based on coverage read but anyone in scope should confirm independently. Also, the official article that deals with loss of German citizenship on gaining another now has a banner thing at the top pointing to this new law (without saying anything too solid) Would frankly also be quite weird for German law to favour "foreigners" over native Germans by having it go one direction only. [0] https://uk.diplo.de/uk-de/02/beibehaltung/2450392 https://uk.diplo.de/uk-de/02/beibehaltung/2450392