4 ms·

The note about moonlighting is thoughtful and well written. https://basecamp.com/handbook/moonlighting https://basecamp.com/handbook/moonlighting Main takeaway

The note about moonlighting is thoughtful and well written. https://basecamp.com/handbook/moonlighting https://basecamp.com/handbook/moonlighting Main takeaway is don't do anything outside of work that will significantly impact work performance, but the way it is written is well balanced and supportive of employee growth.

granshaw 3y ago
I didn’t read it as “significantly” affect work performance at all, it seemed more like it anything that DOES affect work performance is a problem EDIT: Also it seems like they don’t like you doing things similar to what they paid you to do, even if it’s not in competition at all… so sounds like after hours coding consulting even in a complete different industry would be frowned upon even if it didn’t affect your performance So all in all, still pretty strict
- ghaff 3y ago
  I think that's pretty normal conflict of interest language. Seems pretty reasonable in general. You do see broader permissions around things like developing open source software at some companies but they're not common.
  - granshaw 3y ago
    Yes my point was more "this policy is nothing special or more lenient than the usual"
    - ghaff 3y ago
      At least as a practical matter. Some large companies (in particular) may have draconian policies about doing moonlighting but it's probably not a big deal generally as long as it's low-visibility.
      - granshaw 3y ago
        In all cases, you'll want to keep it to yourself, is my advice :)
        ghaff 3y ago
        Oh. I agree. I avoid obvious conflicts of interest. And for any unpaid and pizza-paid advice/minor work for people I do it quietly. But that stuff is pretty simple relative to a (minor) real side-gig which I had (shareware back in the day) but was pretty much orthogonal to my day job and my manager knew about.
josefresco 3y ago
I couldn't disagree more. As my employer you have no right to dictate what I do on my own time, nor should you even be aware or have opinions. > But we want to make sure professional endeavors outside of 37signals don’t create conflicts of interest or affect your time, dedication, or performance at 37signals. So it’s a delicate balance. How about you mind your fcking business (literally in this case), and if I start to slip at work you can talk to me, discipline me or fire me. What I do at 5:01 PM is no one's business but my own. 37S is just yet another corp who wants to control every aspect of your life. Water is wet, grass is green.
- Angostura 3y ago
  If they are paying you to do X and outside of work you are doing something that directly conflicts with X, don't you thimk that might fall within the realms of 'their business'? Wouldn't they be better off employing someone who wasn't attempting to bring the business down after hours?
  - kioleanu 3y ago
    that's only one part of what they're saying. Sure, conflict of interest is imoral, but telling me I am only allowed to do work for acquaintances and that once in a while... you can gently fluff off. And they keep repeating "a few hours per month", when they pay me for 160 hours out of 700 something in a month :). The only valid point apart from conflict of interest is this, otherwise they should stop pretending they own my body, mind and soul: "Does it require you to be away during times when you’re needed at work?"
  - Algemarin 3y ago
    If you believe this, you presumably also believe that companies should be able to enforce this, yes? Which means what, hiring private investigators (or having an in-house investigations team) to monitor employees after business hours? So you either support surveilling staff after-hours, or you think the policy merits existing but doesn't merit follow-through and enforcement?
    - 3y ago
aantix 3y ago
If they want to dictate my time outside of work, then pay me for my time outside of work.
- ckolkey 3y ago
  Yeah, it's called a salary, you'd get one.
  - micromacrofoot 3y ago
    salary covers 40 hours a week, if I'm competently doing my job and you want to dictate what I do the other 16 hours a day you better be paying me for it – the notion that a salary covers this is complete nonsense
    - newsclues 3y ago
      A salary is a wage for your work, and generally you have a contractual agreement dictating the terms of work and remuneration and benefits. That doesn’t mean it’s always 40 hours per week or doesn’t cover work outside of the standard 9 to 5. Lots of us have to work hours that suck to keep the world running.
      - micromacrofoot 3y ago
        People undoubtedly have different hours and schedules... but the point still stands: if you want to dictate what I use my time for despite my otherwise competent work then you should have to pay me for it. Non-competes don't even stand up in this regard.

granshaw 3y ago

I didn’t read it as “significantly” affect work performance at all, it seemed more like it anything that DOES affect work performance is a problem EDIT: Also it seems like they don’t like you doing things similar to what they paid you to do, even if it’s not in competition at all… so sounds like after hours coding consulting even in a complete different industry would be frowned upon even if it didn’t affect your performance So all in all, still pretty strict

ghaff 3y ago
I think that's pretty normal conflict of interest language. Seems pretty reasonable in general. You do see broader permissions around things like developing open source software at some companies but they're not common.
- granshaw 3y ago
  Yes my point was more "this policy is nothing special or more lenient than the usual"
  - ghaff 3y ago
    At least as a practical matter. Some large companies (in particular) may have draconian policies about doing moonlighting but it's probably not a big deal generally as long as it's low-visibility.
    - granshaw 3y ago
      In all cases, you'll want to keep it to yourself, is my advice :)
      - ghaff 3y ago
        Oh. I agree. I avoid obvious conflicts of interest. And for any unpaid and pizza-paid advice/minor work for people I do it quietly. But that stuff is pretty simple relative to a (minor) real side-gig which I had (shareware back in the day) but was pretty much orthogonal to my day job and my manager knew about.

josefresco 3y ago

I couldn't disagree more. As my employer you have no right to dictate what I do on my own time, nor should you even be aware or have opinions. > But we want to make sure professional endeavors outside of 37signals don’t create conflicts of interest or affect your time, dedication, or performance at 37signals. So it’s a delicate balance. How about you mind your fcking business (literally in this case), and if I start to slip at work you can talk to me, discipline me or fire me. What I do at 5:01 PM is no one's business but my own. 37S is just yet another corp who wants to control every aspect of your life. Water is wet, grass is green.

Angostura 3y ago
If they are paying you to do X and outside of work you are doing something that directly conflicts with X, don't you thimk that might fall within the realms of 'their business'? Wouldn't they be better off employing someone who wasn't attempting to bring the business down after hours?
- kioleanu 3y ago
  that's only one part of what they're saying. Sure, conflict of interest is imoral, but telling me I am only allowed to do work for acquaintances and that once in a while... you can gently fluff off. And they keep repeating "a few hours per month", when they pay me for 160 hours out of 700 something in a month :). The only valid point apart from conflict of interest is this, otherwise they should stop pretending they own my body, mind and soul: "Does it require you to be away during times when you’re needed at work?"
- Algemarin 3y ago
  If you believe this, you presumably also believe that companies should be able to enforce this, yes? Which means what, hiring private investigators (or having an in-house investigations team) to monitor employees after business hours? So you either support surveilling staff after-hours, or you think the policy merits existing but doesn't merit follow-through and enforcement?
  - 3y ago

aantix 3y ago

If they want to dictate my time outside of work, then pay me for my time outside of work.

ckolkey 3y ago
Yeah, it's called a salary, you'd get one.
- micromacrofoot 3y ago
  salary covers 40 hours a week, if I'm competently doing my job and you want to dictate what I do the other 16 hours a day you better be paying me for it – the notion that a salary covers this is complete nonsense
  - newsclues 3y ago
    A salary is a wage for your work, and generally you have a contractual agreement dictating the terms of work and remuneration and benefits. That doesn’t mean it’s always 40 hours per week or doesn’t cover work outside of the standard 9 to 5. Lots of us have to work hours that suck to keep the world running.
    - micromacrofoot 3y ago
      People undoubtedly have different hours and schedules... but the point still stands: if you want to dictate what I use my time for despite my otherwise competent work then you should have to pay me for it. Non-competes don't even stand up in this regard.