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> Because interfacing via API is expensive. Writing APIs for others to use productively isn't easy and change management also adds a lot of overhead. I agree i

by braza 3y ago

> Because interfacing via API is expensive. Writing APIs for others to use productively isn't easy and change management also adds a lot of overhead. I agree in principle, but there is a lot of “unseen coordination/communication” costs that it’s easy taken for granted. When I was working on telecom doing interfacing with carriers (e.g T-Mobile, Verizon, etc.) on thing that I noticed was how simple was to work with those folks: Ok, this is the standard XML, those are the endpoints, that’s the list of error codes, the rate limit is X requests per second, a bunch of files will be on this FTP at 5AM daily basis, and if you face more than 100ms latency from our side just call this number. Working with “product” companies without silos most of the time it’s design by committee, folks that won’t keep the service running wanting to have a say in our payload wanting us to change our overly reliable RabbitMQ to use their Kafka.

acjohnson55 3y ago
> When I was working on telecom doing interfacing with carriers (e.g T-Mobile, Verizon, etc.) on thing that I noticed was how simple was to work with those folks: Ok, this is the standard XML, those are the endpoints, that’s the list of error codes, the rate limit is X requests per second, a bunch of files will be on this FTP at 5AM daily basis, and if you face more than 100ms latency from our side just call this number. To me, that probably reflects the maturity of the services the carriers provide. And presumably that there's an explicit customer-producer relationship? These things justify the complexity of maintaining a well curated and operated API. > Working with “product” companies without silos most of the time it’s design by committee, folks that won’t keep the service running wanting to have a say in our payload wanting us to change our overly reliable RabbitMQ to use their Kafka. If I understand what you're saying, you've experienced platform people telling you what tech to use, without having real skin in the game for operating your services? If so, that sounds very irritating. To me, a truly silo-less approach would not have that. To the extent that there are platform teams with a say in architecture, I think they should develop requirements around the external characteristics of the deliverable (performance, cost, observability, contract with other teams, etc) and largely leave the implementation concerns to the people developing and running the service.
The_Colonel 3y ago
This is an interesting example, becase telco has an actual API standards committee (TM Forum). Telcos have decades of experience and extremely well defined (and to a large degree shared / interchangeable) domain model. It's an ideal scenario for APIs. Meanwhile your product companies each develop different product, there's little standardization. API designers have only vague idea what the API will be used for and how. Fast evolution is important.
- adamzochowski 3y ago
  TM Forum provides a bloated format. It has everything and a kitchen sink. This means that something simple like customer name can be written in multiple places, and different architects will recommend different location. Two different silos within same company won't be able to talk to each other because although they are using same format, they interpret the usage different. Additionally, this is XML/XSD, different teams will end up using different version of the standard. They won't be able to interface with each other without additional layers of translations. It is not uncommon for one team to need to load multiple versions of the XSDs because different end points use different versions.
sgarland 3y ago
> folks that won’t keep the service running wanting to have a say in our payload wanting us to change This is my single biggest gripe with DevOps. If you’re not going to be fixing it, why on earth do you get a say as to how I build it? It’s nearly _always_ a one-way street, too – when’s the last time Ops successfully ordered Dev to change some specific part of their code (modulo things like, “hey, you really need to add a rate-limiter”)?
- acjohnson55 3y ago
  IMO, this phenomenon is not specific to DevOps. I've seen this happen when there are official architects or architecture committees. One of the problems about debating DevOps is that there's no single agreed upon meaning. That probably also impedes its success. To me, the essence is that there are engineers whose job it is to give product and service devs the ability to do their own operations through software that simplifies basic shared concerns. That does not mean mandating solutions.
rqtwteye 3y ago
“Working with “product” companies without silos most of the time it’s design by committee,” With siloes you may end up with design by ego trip.
- danielovichdk 3y ago
  Egos only exists if the team let them exist. A strong leader will make sure this is not happening.
  - jpc0 3y ago
    A strong leader at the same time can cause it to happen...

by braza 3y ago

acjohnson55 3y ago

> When I was working on telecom doing interfacing with carriers (e.g T-Mobile, Verizon, etc.) on thing that I noticed was how simple was to work with those folks: Ok, this is the standard XML, those are the endpoints, that’s the list of error codes, the rate limit is X requests per second, a bunch of files will be on this FTP at 5AM daily basis, and if you face more than 100ms latency from our side just call this number. To me, that probably reflects the maturity of the services the carriers provide. And presumably that there's an explicit customer-producer relationship? These things justify the complexity of maintaining a well curated and operated API. > Working with “product” companies without silos most of the time it’s design by committee, folks that won’t keep the service running wanting to have a say in our payload wanting us to change our overly reliable RabbitMQ to use their Kafka. If I understand what you're saying, you've experienced platform people telling you what tech to use, without having real skin in the game for operating your services? If so, that sounds very irritating. To me, a truly silo-less approach would not have that. To the extent that there are platform teams with a say in architecture, I think they should develop requirements around the external characteristics of the deliverable (performance, cost, observability, contract with other teams, etc) and largely leave the implementation concerns to the people developing and running the service.

The_Colonel 3y ago

This is an interesting example, becase telco has an actual API standards committee (TM Forum). Telcos have decades of experience and extremely well defined (and to a large degree shared / interchangeable) domain model. It's an ideal scenario for APIs. Meanwhile your product companies each develop different product, there's little standardization. API designers have only vague idea what the API will be used for and how. Fast evolution is important.

adamzochowski 3y ago
TM Forum provides a bloated format. It has everything and a kitchen sink. This means that something simple like customer name can be written in multiple places, and different architects will recommend different location. Two different silos within same company won't be able to talk to each other because although they are using same format, they interpret the usage different. Additionally, this is XML/XSD, different teams will end up using different version of the standard. They won't be able to interface with each other without additional layers of translations. It is not uncommon for one team to need to load multiple versions of the XSDs because different end points use different versions.

sgarland 3y ago

> folks that won’t keep the service running wanting to have a say in our payload wanting us to change This is my single biggest gripe with DevOps. If you’re not going to be fixing it, why on earth do you get a say as to how I build it? It’s nearly _always_ a one-way street, too – when’s the last time Ops successfully ordered Dev to change some specific part of their code (modulo things like, “hey, you really need to add a rate-limiter”)?

acjohnson55 3y ago
IMO, this phenomenon is not specific to DevOps. I've seen this happen when there are official architects or architecture committees. One of the problems about debating DevOps is that there's no single agreed upon meaning. That probably also impedes its success. To me, the essence is that there are engineers whose job it is to give product and service devs the ability to do their own operations through software that simplifies basic shared concerns. That does not mean mandating solutions.

rqtwteye 3y ago

“Working with “product” companies without silos most of the time it’s design by committee,” With siloes you may end up with design by ego trip.

danielovichdk 3y ago
Egos only exists if the team let them exist. A strong leader will make sure this is not happening.
- jpc0 3y ago
  A strong leader at the same time can cause it to happen...