6 ms·

I took a senior classics course on the ancient near East when I was in university. (It had no prereqs, and I wanted to do something that actually felt like univ

by debo_ 3y ago

I took a senior classics course on the ancient near East when I was in university. (It had no prereqs, and I wanted to do something that actually felt like university.) It was fascinating. One anecdote I remember is that Hercules was potentially derived from stories of a Phoenician hero who walked along the shore and discovered that the molluscs that crushed beneath his feet created a purple hue. He was renowned for turning this stuff into purple dye that came to signify royalty. Anyways, I've never bothered looking this up further. I just loved the potential origins of things. (Another interesting one -- Jesus being in many ways derived from Baal. Given that our professor was also a priest, I thought he was surprisingly open to teaching this stuff.)

digging 3y ago
> One anecdote I remember is that Hercules was potentially derived from stories of a Phoenician hero who walked along the shore and discovered that the molluscs that crushed beneath his feet created a purple hue. He was renowned for turning this stuff into purple dye that came to signify royalty. Any more info about this? It's not clear how the two figures are related from this description, but I wouldn't be surprised if Hercules was derived from an earlier Phoenician myth. (Or did Hercules have a purple cloak I'm unaware of?)
- pvaldes 3y ago
  > a Phoenician hero walked along the shore and discovered that the molluscs that crushed beneath his feet created a purple hue This can be taken littorally, but not literally. Is clearly speech beautification. In ancient times it was probably understood by the public that the narrator talks about a task that is impossible (or really difficult at least). Is clearly a metaphor to stress that a character has heroic qualities like strength and, in particular, a high tolerance to pain.
  - debo_ 3y ago
    I didn't intend for it to be interpreted literally. I wrote "derived from stories of."
    - pvaldes 3y ago
      We are talking about this snail. Is related with Hercules in a different way, as some are said to be shaped like the Hercules club: http://www.idscaro.net/sci/04_med/class/fam3/species/bolinus_brandaris1.htm http://www.idscaro.net/sci/04_med/class/fam3/species/bolinus... Can't fall to mention that the Cerne Abbas giant has been drawn holding a club that is spiny also.
      - debo_ 3y ago
        Are you ok?
- boomboomsubban 3y ago
  A quick search for Phoenician purple (apparently called Tyrian purple) brought up this seventeenth century painting recounting a second century AD Heracles story that may have been influenced by the Phoenician god Melqart. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercules%27s_Dog_Discovers_Purple_Dye https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercules%27s_Dog_Discovers_Pur...
riffraff 3y ago
interesting, a couple weeks ago I learned indo-europeists think that "strong man kills snake thingy" may be a shared proto-indo-european tale[0] (think Indra, Thor, Hercules). I wasn't too convinced and hearing now that it might be from a non-indo-european tradition is quite fun, thanks :) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/*Trito https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/*Trito
- inemesitaffia 3y ago
  There's a similar story but in Africa. Actual snake though
  - SllX 3y ago
    Also the Yamata no Orochi slain by Susanoo in Japan. Actually looking at the page for Yamata no Orochi contains a description of both what the parent was talking about and a list of myths where man kills snake-thingy (or Chaoskampf in German, also known as Drachenkampf): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamata_no_Orochi#Mythological_parallels https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamata_no_Orochi#Mythological_...
  - Turing_Machine 3y ago
    The Indo-European one might have been an actual snake at one point, too. Fish stories, flood stories, and snake stories all have something in common. The subjects of the stories tend to get larger and larger as the tales go down the generations.
gerdesj 3y ago
"Jesus being in many ways derived from Baal" I recall Baal being a daemon/devil/naughty boy - as described by followers of Christianity. Perhaps one of us is mistaken.
- thaumasiotes 3y ago
  Why would one of you need to be mistaken? Ba'al is just an ordinary word meaning "lord" in several Semitic languages. Various Semitic gods are given the title. It is not surprising in the slightest that many traits of the Semitic god Jesus would derive from the traits of other Semitic gods, nor is it surprising that Christians would demonize non-Christian gods.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

by debo_ 3y ago

digging 3y ago

> One anecdote I remember is that Hercules was potentially derived from stories of a Phoenician hero who walked along the shore and discovered that the molluscs that crushed beneath his feet created a purple hue. He was renowned for turning this stuff into purple dye that came to signify royalty. Any more info about this? It's not clear how the two figures are related from this description, but I wouldn't be surprised if Hercules was derived from an earlier Phoenician myth. (Or did Hercules have a purple cloak I'm unaware of?)

pvaldes 3y ago
> a Phoenician hero walked along the shore and discovered that the molluscs that crushed beneath his feet created a purple hue This can be taken littorally, but not literally. Is clearly speech beautification. In ancient times it was probably understood by the public that the narrator talks about a task that is impossible (or really difficult at least). Is clearly a metaphor to stress that a character has heroic qualities like strength and, in particular, a high tolerance to pain.
- debo_ 3y ago
  I didn't intend for it to be interpreted literally. I wrote "derived from stories of."
  - pvaldes 3y ago
    We are talking about this snail. Is related with Hercules in a different way, as some are said to be shaped like the Hercules club: http://www.idscaro.net/sci/04_med/class/fam3/species/bolinus_brandaris1.htm http://www.idscaro.net/sci/04_med/class/fam3/species/bolinus... Can't fall to mention that the Cerne Abbas giant has been drawn holding a club that is spiny also.
    - debo_ 3y ago
      Are you ok?
boomboomsubban 3y ago
A quick search for Phoenician purple (apparently called Tyrian purple) brought up this seventeenth century painting recounting a second century AD Heracles story that may have been influenced by the Phoenician god Melqart. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercules%27s_Dog_Discovers_Purple_Dye https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercules%27s_Dog_Discovers_Pur...

riffraff 3y ago

interesting, a couple weeks ago I learned indo-europeists think that "strong man kills snake thingy" may be a shared proto-indo-european tale[0] (think Indra, Thor, Hercules). I wasn't too convinced and hearing now that it might be from a non-indo-european tradition is quite fun, thanks :) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/*Trito https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/*Trito

inemesitaffia 3y ago
There's a similar story but in Africa. Actual snake though
- SllX 3y ago
  Also the Yamata no Orochi slain by Susanoo in Japan. Actually looking at the page for Yamata no Orochi contains a description of both what the parent was talking about and a list of myths where man kills snake-thingy (or Chaoskampf in German, also known as Drachenkampf): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamata_no_Orochi#Mythological_parallels https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamata_no_Orochi#Mythological_...
- Turing_Machine 3y ago
  The Indo-European one might have been an actual snake at one point, too. Fish stories, flood stories, and snake stories all have something in common. The subjects of the stories tend to get larger and larger as the tales go down the generations.

gerdesj 3y ago

"Jesus being in many ways derived from Baal" I recall Baal being a daemon/devil/naughty boy - as described by followers of Christianity. Perhaps one of us is mistaken.

thaumasiotes 3y ago
Why would one of you need to be mistaken? Ba'al is just an ordinary word meaning "lord" in several Semitic languages. Various Semitic gods are given the title. It is not surprising in the slightest that many traits of the Semitic god Jesus would derive from the traits of other Semitic gods, nor is it surprising that Christians would demonize non-Christian gods.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]