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This is all about getting users off of the fantastic native mail apps and onto googles own. You can’t get realtime mail notifications without gmail.app or the s

This is all about getting users off of the fantastic native mail apps and onto googles own. You can’t get realtime mail notifications without gmail.app or the soon to be deprecated Google sync. I hate it. I pay Google for workspace and I hate it. At least Mimestream still works on desktop but I bet they’re coming for that soon too.

cbg0 3y ago
Yes, it's pretty obvious this is what's going on. The solution to these "less secure apps" was to simply generate stronger passwords for them instead of making the user jump through hoops by using oauth2 proxies, especially for older hardware/software.
- rezonant 3y ago
  Which is actually supported already with App specific Passwords...
rezonant 3y ago
App specific passwords will continue to work, and will work fine if your native app does not support the usual OAuth flow.
- mcv 3y ago
  This is good to know, because I think I already use those everywhere (except on my latest machine; I should fix that). Even so, I will also be using this as a reminder to move my stuff away from Google.
- eastern 3y ago
  "will continue" can't really be said about anything Google with any degree of confidence.
esskay 3y ago
Fully agree. Also paying for my gmail account and hate every moment of it but nobody seems to be able to get remotely close to gmail for spam handling.
- Hard_Space 3y ago
  After two years of using Fastmail as my primary account, in my effort to de-Google in 2022, spam recognition at Fastmail seems to me to be on a par with Gmail, if not better. I still use both.
  - Freak_NL 3y ago
    I really have no qualms about Fastmail spam handling either. It's fine; don't let that stop anyone from switching away from Google.
  - esskay 3y ago
    Interesting, might have to give it another shot!
  - dbrgn 3y ago
    I use Fastmail for 5+ years now. Initially I feared that the experience would be worse than Gmail (with regards to the Web UI, to spam filtering, etc). It is not. It really is much better!
    - dotancohen 3y ago
      Which plan are you on?
      - dbrgn 3y ago
        I use the standard plan.
  - RockRobotRock 3y ago
    I love it. I can sync my Gmail to it seamlessly as I slowly transition all my accounts to my new email address.
josephg 3y ago
They should get on it and adopt jmap already. It’s a good, standard protocol with unreasonably low adoption because of the chicken and egg problem between mail providers and mail applications. If Gmail supported jmap it would encourage implementers everywhere to support it. And jmap supports notifications and all the rest.
- bluish29 3y ago
  Does any service use it beside fastmail on a large scale?
- paholg 3y ago
  I agree, but why would Google adopt it when they have their own proprietary protocol with similar functionality? Companies love anything that makes them more "sticky", whether it's good for the user or not.
- gsich 3y ago
  IMAP does too.
nolist_policy 3y ago
No this is about getting users off fucking Outlook 2007 or worse.
- jeroenhd 3y ago
  Outlook 2007 users can use app passwords to maintain access. This is about users running Outlook 2007 with their main app password stored to their account database, rather than a randomly generated, email-specific password.
  - RedShift1 3y ago
    Any casual computer user won't be able to get this working.
    - jeroenhd 3y ago
      If they can't get it working, they're probably not aware of the risks and should move to newer mail solutions anyway. This only affects Workspace accounts, so I'm sure the users stuck with Outlook 2007 can call IT to get it working again.
jeroenhd 3y ago
Oauth isn't that hard to implement. It requires a WebView as part of the setup process, but after that the mail app just needs to store a token as a password and it'll keep working. Oauth for email is part of the various RFCs pertaining to email authentication and has been around for years. Thunderbird and various mobile apps support Gmail just fine using Oauth. I think the bigger problem is that many desktop apps seem to have stopped implementing changes to IMAP and SMTP about ten years ago. If you have an email app that's no longer maintained, use app passwords (generated per-app passwords), like Google is indicating in the linked article. Those will still work. It's just the hardcoded username/password for the main account that's going away. This will be a major pain for the Office 2016 users, as 30 september is still about nine months before their Outlook goes out of support, but for most users this will be quite a easy fix.
- palata 3y ago
  > It requires a WebView as part of the setup process Why does it require a WebView, btw? Is there a good technical reason for that, or is it just what they happened to do?
  - michaelt 3y ago
    They want the power to add arbitrary extra steps in the login flow. For example, maybe they want to force the user to change a compromised password, or hand over their phone number, or complete a captcha, or accept a load of legalese. You can do this without a webview in your application, but it usually means giving the user an URL to open in their own browser.
  - notatoad 3y ago
    Doesn't google explicitly forbid a WebView for oauth? The point is to not have users entering their google credentials into third-party apps, and a WebView is still entering your credentials into a third-party app. The app has to open the google login page in a real browser, not a WebView.
    - palata 3y ago
theodric 3y ago
I appreciate that we all have different bugbears, but realtime mail notification isn't going to get me off Thunderbird. Email is asynchronous, and therefore finding out 10 minutes later about a message coming in shouldn't be a problem. If I'm expecting the message then I'll be mashing refresh until it arrives, anyway. If you need me more urgently, text me. Don't call. I don't like calls.
- Aerbil313 3y ago
  Same, native iOS Mail app in my case. I get Gmail notifications only when connected to power and Wi-Fi (can be set to a time interval too but I’d rather conserve my battery). When I expect a mail, I open the app and it auto refreshes until the mail comes.
- kylehotchkiss 3y ago
  My use case is OTP. Either through email or via SMS/google voice. Real time really helps with those, especially if you use Safari's OTP prefill. I'd really rather use 1password for OTP but so few non-tech services support that.
Arnt 3y ago
Their realtime mail notifications are specified at https://developers.google.com/gmail/api/guides/push https://developers.google.com/gmail/api/guides/push You can also get realtime notifications using IMAP+IDLE+app passwords, although IIRC that'll lag by a couple of seconds.
- tadfisher 3y ago
  Push requires a Pub/Sub client, which doesn't have a free tier (last time I checked).
  - Arnt 3y ago
    I'm sure I misunderstand something then, so please correct me: doesn't Gmail pub to a server you choose, and you sub from it? Are there no servers with free tiers, is it impossible to run your own, does Gmail refuse to pub to a server outside Google, or what's the problem?
    - tadfisher 3y ago
      I'm talking about the "Cloud Pub/Sub API", linked from the doc you posted. The pricing is described here: https://cloud.google.com/pubsub/pricing https://cloud.google.com/pubsub/pricing
SirMaster 3y ago
Yeah, I am sad. I still use the Microsoft Exchange option to access my Gmail account on my iPhone in Mail.app so that I get push notifications.

cbg0 3y ago

Yes, it's pretty obvious this is what's going on. The solution to these "less secure apps" was to simply generate stronger passwords for them instead of making the user jump through hoops by using oauth2 proxies, especially for older hardware/software.

rezonant 3y ago
Which is actually supported already with App specific Passwords...

rezonant 3y ago

App specific passwords will continue to work, and will work fine if your native app does not support the usual OAuth flow.

mcv 3y ago
This is good to know, because I think I already use those everywhere (except on my latest machine; I should fix that). Even so, I will also be using this as a reminder to move my stuff away from Google.
eastern 3y ago
"will continue" can't really be said about anything Google with any degree of confidence.

esskay 3y ago

Fully agree. Also paying for my gmail account and hate every moment of it but nobody seems to be able to get remotely close to gmail for spam handling.

Hard_Space 3y ago
After two years of using Fastmail as my primary account, in my effort to de-Google in 2022, spam recognition at Fastmail seems to me to be on a par with Gmail, if not better. I still use both.
- Freak_NL 3y ago
  I really have no qualms about Fastmail spam handling either. It's fine; don't let that stop anyone from switching away from Google.
- esskay 3y ago
  Interesting, might have to give it another shot!
- dbrgn 3y ago
  I use Fastmail for 5+ years now. Initially I feared that the experience would be worse than Gmail (with regards to the Web UI, to spam filtering, etc). It is not. It really is much better!
  - dotancohen 3y ago
    Which plan are you on?
    - dbrgn 3y ago
      I use the standard plan.
- RockRobotRock 3y ago
  I love it. I can sync my Gmail to it seamlessly as I slowly transition all my accounts to my new email address.

josephg 3y ago

They should get on it and adopt jmap already. It’s a good, standard protocol with unreasonably low adoption because of the chicken and egg problem between mail providers and mail applications. If Gmail supported jmap it would encourage implementers everywhere to support it. And jmap supports notifications and all the rest.

bluish29 3y ago
Does any service use it beside fastmail on a large scale?
paholg 3y ago
I agree, but why would Google adopt it when they have their own proprietary protocol with similar functionality? Companies love anything that makes them more "sticky", whether it's good for the user or not.
gsich 3y ago
IMAP does too.

nolist_policy 3y ago

No this is about getting users off fucking Outlook 2007 or worse.

jeroenhd 3y ago
Outlook 2007 users can use app passwords to maintain access. This is about users running Outlook 2007 with their main app password stored to their account database, rather than a randomly generated, email-specific password.
- RedShift1 3y ago
  Any casual computer user won't be able to get this working.
  - jeroenhd 3y ago
    If they can't get it working, they're probably not aware of the risks and should move to newer mail solutions anyway. This only affects Workspace accounts, so I'm sure the users stuck with Outlook 2007 can call IT to get it working again.

jeroenhd 3y ago

Oauth isn't that hard to implement. It requires a WebView as part of the setup process, but after that the mail app just needs to store a token as a password and it'll keep working. Oauth for email is part of the various RFCs pertaining to email authentication and has been around for years. Thunderbird and various mobile apps support Gmail just fine using Oauth. I think the bigger problem is that many desktop apps seem to have stopped implementing changes to IMAP and SMTP about ten years ago. If you have an email app that's no longer maintained, use app passwords (generated per-app passwords), like Google is indicating in the linked article. Those will still work. It's just the hardcoded username/password for the main account that's going away. This will be a major pain for the Office 2016 users, as 30 september is still about nine months before their Outlook goes out of support, but for most users this will be quite a easy fix.

palata 3y ago
> It requires a WebView as part of the setup process Why does it require a WebView, btw? Is there a good technical reason for that, or is it just what they happened to do?
- michaelt 3y ago
  They want the power to add arbitrary extra steps in the login flow. For example, maybe they want to force the user to change a compromised password, or hand over their phone number, or complete a captcha, or accept a load of legalese. You can do this without a webview in your application, but it usually means giving the user an URL to open in their own browser.
- notatoad 3y ago
  Doesn't google explicitly forbid a WebView for oauth? The point is to not have users entering their google credentials into third-party apps, and a WebView is still entering your credentials into a third-party app. The app has to open the google login page in a real browser, not a WebView.
  - palata 3y ago

theodric 3y ago

I appreciate that we all have different bugbears, but realtime mail notification isn't going to get me off Thunderbird. Email is asynchronous, and therefore finding out 10 minutes later about a message coming in shouldn't be a problem. If I'm expecting the message then I'll be mashing refresh until it arrives, anyway. If you need me more urgently, text me. Don't call. I don't like calls.

Aerbil313 3y ago
Same, native iOS Mail app in my case. I get Gmail notifications only when connected to power and Wi-Fi (can be set to a time interval too but I’d rather conserve my battery). When I expect a mail, I open the app and it auto refreshes until the mail comes.
kylehotchkiss 3y ago
My use case is OTP. Either through email or via SMS/google voice. Real time really helps with those, especially if you use Safari's OTP prefill. I'd really rather use 1password for OTP but so few non-tech services support that.

Arnt 3y ago

Their realtime mail notifications are specified at https://developers.google.com/gmail/api/guides/push https://developers.google.com/gmail/api/guides/push You can also get realtime notifications using IMAP+IDLE+app passwords, although IIRC that'll lag by a couple of seconds.

tadfisher 3y ago
Push requires a Pub/Sub client, which doesn't have a free tier (last time I checked).
- Arnt 3y ago
  I'm sure I misunderstand something then, so please correct me: doesn't Gmail pub to a server you choose, and you sub from it? Are there no servers with free tiers, is it impossible to run your own, does Gmail refuse to pub to a server outside Google, or what's the problem?
  - tadfisher 3y ago
    I'm talking about the "Cloud Pub/Sub API", linked from the doc you posted. The pricing is described here: https://cloud.google.com/pubsub/pricing https://cloud.google.com/pubsub/pricing

SirMaster 3y ago

Yeah, I am sad. I still use the Microsoft Exchange option to access my Gmail account on my iPhone in Mail.app so that I get push notifications.