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> I'm sure people know the answers to this I don't think they do. AFAIK most of your assertions above are unknowns. My theory, at least re: psilocybin and th
by __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
> I'm sure people know the answers to this
I don't think they do. AFAIK most of your assertions above are unknowns.
My theory, at least re: psilocybin and the like, is that a parasitic fungus developed neurotransmitter agonists as a way of manipulating its host. The complete cocktail that was needed to make the target species behave in a way that completed the fungus' lifecycle may be lost to time, but certain components of it still exist in the gene pool.
And if you're going to have millions of spores (rather than the two or three offspring that, say, humans have) you can afford to set them up with a wider array of gene expression profiles. So you've got these fungi just trying stuff to see what works--now armed with neurotransmitter agonists as part of that "stuff".
Later on you've got other organisms eating those mushrooms and behaving strangely. If you're a fungal spore, and you're in an animal's digestive tract, "strangely" is probably how you want it to be behaving. You're going to end up in a different place or with different nutrients or in some other situation which is abnormal for your host--you end up with greater habitat diversity.
How specifically that host-behavior-strangeness would lead to a lifecycle that would reinforce the inclusion of psychedelics to the point where P. Cubensis is reliably psychedelic, rather than just the occasional mutant, I have no idea, but when you've got billions of years to play with, it's not hard to accept that some pretty weird animal-fungus interactions came up here and there.
- timschmidt 3y agoMany psychoactive molecules are also structurally very similar to other hormones, and molecules produced for other aspects of biological function. Take a look at NN-DMT and Melatonin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N,N-Dimethyltryptamine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N,N-Dimethyltryptamine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melatonin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melatonin Just a slight mutation, or even biological synthesis under non-ideal conditions could easily result in synthesizing one or the other via the same pathway.
- danielbln 3y agoIt's equally likely that alkaloids like psilocybin are insect or bird repellents or mere metabolic byproducts, and that the fact they sort of slot into the 5-HT2A receptor in the brains of some species, wreaking havoc on various processing systems there, is a mere coincidence.
- Aerbil313 3y agoExcept none of the stuff you antropomorphize possess human intelligence.
- __MatrixMan__ 3y agoAre you sure? There is a lot of complexity in a million years of mixing spores and mycelial karyotypes. I haven't done the math but it seems like it could easily rival a human brain.
- kjkjadksj 3y agoHumans always assume intelligence requires a brain. I think sugar cane are quite intelligent on the other hand. They have came up with a means to coopt another species for breeding: us humans, who have in turn created this cult of the sugar cane where it is now the most cultivated crop on the planet for probably the forseeable future. What an amazingly efficient way to proliferate your lineage. You don’t need to evolve these costly and highly derived structures like brains or articulated thumbs yourself, let the dumb human break their back harvesting you and spreading your lineage around the world.
- __MatrixMan__ 3y agoTotally. Between bread and alcohol, yeast has basically managed to domesticate humans. Maybe our experiences differ so much that we can't strike up a conversion, but that's no reason to discount intelligence.
- SamBam 3y agoIndeed, it's a reasonable argument that fungi evolved these molecules specifically to affect animal's brains. After all, we can see specific behaviors that help spores spread, like the zombie ants. I think marijuana or poppies have less plausible explanations for how they would have evolved specifically to mess with animal's minds.
- hollerith 3y agoTHC and opiates in poppies basically are animal neurotransmitters, so I disagree. Their original function was probably to discourage animals from eating the plant. Animals seems to have a reflex by which any drastic changes to brain function induce vomiting of and aversion to any food the animal just ate.
- flkenosad 3y agoCould herbalists just be God's AlphaFold?
- bongodongobob 3y agoI don't really buy this theory. Taking mushrooms is more likely to make me want to curl up in bed rather than run around. And would it really last long enough to get an animal outside of it's normal range? Not in my opinion.
- __MatrixMan__ 3y agoFor me, psilocybin catalyzed such pivotal decisions as moving out of my parents' house, getting married, and changing careers. It seems plausible that it would be relevant to the founder effect (https://www.genome.gov/genetics-glossary/Founder-Effect https://www.genome.gov/genetics-glossary/Founder-Effect) in other animals. Sometimes we need a little shove to start doing new things that end up being advantageous. There's no reason to believe that we're unique in that way. If that shove is advantageous enough to be worth returning for a second shove, well now you've got the seed of a cross-kingdom relationship.
- bongodongobob 3y agoBut that is outside of the timeframe you'd be spreading spores. Deciding to move out in a month isn't doing anything for the mushroom.
- __MatrixMan__ 3y agoWell in that particular case, moving out meant I could dedicate a whole closet to cultivating them. But I don't think that cultivation is a necessary step, merely returning for more is enough to start the kind of relationship where adaptations which allow for one party to help the other are selected for.