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How is double stair MFH overzealous? I can’t control if my neighbor blocks the stairwell with a couch that gets stuck while he’s moving in and now I have no egr

How is double stair MFH overzealous? I can’t control if my neighbor blocks the stairwell with a couch that gets stuck while he’s moving in and now I have no egress if my other neighbor starts a fire. I’m in favor of greater freedoms, and the freedom to choose a single stair MFH if I want. But I don’t want.

kspacewalk2 3y ago
A couch and a fire and that couch can't be pushed over or jumped over... That's quite a contrived scenario. I suspect that most of the improvements in the fire safety record of apartment buildings have to do with other factors like materials used, fireproof stair doors, etc etc. The reason I think the two stairs don't do much is that first world countries exist outside North America, they don't have this rule, and their fire safety is just as good or better than ours. Same reason I'm extremely skeptical that our fire trucks need to be so grotesquely large, despite what the fire departments claim. If there were no countries with a good fire safety record outside North America, like sure, okay, maybe. But they're just as good or better at fighting fires in Europe, and manage to go this with human sized trucks that don't require extremely wide streets, wide turn radiuses, and aren't nearly as deadly for pedestrians as a result. Thanks for existing, Europe, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan etc! One day we'll accept that you to cities, building and engineering better and just copy you.
- u801e 3y ago
  > A couch and a fire and that couch can't be pushed over or jumped over. Not everyone is young and in shape to push couches or jump over them.
  - lukas099 3y ago
    So even more contrived
  - pzone 3y ago
    If you have mobility issues that prevent you from exiting your building easily then you can move somewhere else. We don’t need to make every apartment building in the country more expensive for this extremely specific scenario.
    - u801e 3y ago
      I can go up and down unobstructed stairs without any issues, but I have back problems which keep me from doing heavy lifting and I'm in no condition to jump or climb over a sofa in the middle of a flight of stairs. The real problem here is expecting people to be able bodied enough to deal with a lack of alternative exits when someone in the same building inevitably is careless enough to start a fire.
- hammock 3y ago
  >A couch and a fire and that couch can't be pushed over or jumped over... That's quite a contrived scenario. I suspect that most of the improvements in the fire safety record of apartment buildings have to do with other factors like materials used, fireproof stair doors, etc etc. I suppose you also think it’s silly for flight crew to confirm people sitting in the exit row are able and willing to help in an emergency. Couldn’t you just push them out of the way or jump over them?
- nkrisc 3y ago
  > A couch and a fire and that couch can't be pushed over or jumped over... You’re 85.
  - porkbeer 3y ago
    Or maybe they have small children. Wtf man.
kdmccormick 3y ago
> I can’t control if my neighbor blocks the stairwell with a couch that gets stuck while he’s moving in and now I have no egress if my other neighbor starts a fire. That is an extremely specific situation! > How is double stair MFH overzealous? There is a cost to every regulation. The cost to this one is that housing is more expensive for all Americans. Stress, poverty, and homelessness all lead to negative health outcomes. Taken as a whole, those negative outcomes may very well outweigh the fire safety benefits of double-stair (which have never been proven to exist). > I’m in favor of greater freedoms, and the freedom to choose a single stair MFH if I want. > But I don’t want. Right, so it sounds like you are in favor of removing the double-stair regulation?
- hammock 3y ago
  >That is an extremely specific situation! It’s an example. Can you generalize it or should I?
  - kelseyfrog 3y ago
    Here's a hypothetical for a two-stairwell building: two couches. We can avoid this dangerous scenario with a three-stairwell minimum requirement.
    - hammock 3y ago
      Good point. Why do we even bother with two-lane roads and a double yellow line? Such a waste of space. Very contrived to presume there is always a car coming the other way
      - kelseyfrog 3y ago
        Sorry, but the only thing that will change my mind is a significantly casualty different between single stairwell and dual-stairwell buildings accounting for building age, construction type, property value, and occupant demographics. Happy to hear evidence-based arguments.
      - 3y ago
TaylorAlexander 3y ago
> How is double stair MFH overzealous? I suggest reading the article, which is intended to answer this question in depth. It provides concrete examples!
- hammock 3y ago
  As a safety measure, it doesn’t, unless I missed something. In fact it says there has been barely any analysis
amarshall 3y ago
The couch goes in the elevator, not the stairwell.
Klaster_1 3y ago
Check out this video, which argues against double stair MFH - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRdwXQb7CfM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRdwXQb7CfM.
cheriot 3y ago
We should require two stairs for single family housing as well. The elderly and disabled will also need to get furniture up stairs. Not to mention that the housing shortage forces more people to share a house with strangers.
- shiroiuma 3y ago
  >Not to mention that the housing shortage forces more people to share a house with strangers. Or, you could just build more housing... And stop insisting on so much living space while you're at it. Here in Tokyo, no one lives with strangers, even if they get minimum wage. They can still afford an apartment by themselves, though it'll be a very small apartment that's certainly illegal to build in America.
  - cheriot 3y ago
    I agree. That was an attempt at reductio ad absurdum.
Paradigma11 3y ago
That doesnt help you because another neighbor is moving out and blocking the second staircase with another couch. This is the reason why you should have three staircases and only two neighbors. Though a problem arises if a neighbor is able to block a staircase and start a fire at the same time. That has to be checked beforehand.

kspacewalk2 3y ago

A couch and a fire and that couch can't be pushed over or jumped over... That's quite a contrived scenario. I suspect that most of the improvements in the fire safety record of apartment buildings have to do with other factors like materials used, fireproof stair doors, etc etc. The reason I think the two stairs don't do much is that first world countries exist outside North America, they don't have this rule, and their fire safety is just as good or better than ours. Same reason I'm extremely skeptical that our fire trucks need to be so grotesquely large, despite what the fire departments claim. If there were no countries with a good fire safety record outside North America, like sure, okay, maybe. But they're just as good or better at fighting fires in Europe, and manage to go this with human sized trucks that don't require extremely wide streets, wide turn radiuses, and aren't nearly as deadly for pedestrians as a result. Thanks for existing, Europe, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan etc! One day we'll accept that you to cities, building and engineering better and just copy you.

u801e 3y ago
> A couch and a fire and that couch can't be pushed over or jumped over. Not everyone is young and in shape to push couches or jump over them.
- lukas099 3y ago
  So even more contrived
- pzone 3y ago
  If you have mobility issues that prevent you from exiting your building easily then you can move somewhere else. We don’t need to make every apartment building in the country more expensive for this extremely specific scenario.
  - u801e 3y ago
    I can go up and down unobstructed stairs without any issues, but I have back problems which keep me from doing heavy lifting and I'm in no condition to jump or climb over a sofa in the middle of a flight of stairs. The real problem here is expecting people to be able bodied enough to deal with a lack of alternative exits when someone in the same building inevitably is careless enough to start a fire.
hammock 3y ago
>A couch and a fire and that couch can't be pushed over or jumped over... That's quite a contrived scenario. I suspect that most of the improvements in the fire safety record of apartment buildings have to do with other factors like materials used, fireproof stair doors, etc etc. I suppose you also think it’s silly for flight crew to confirm people sitting in the exit row are able and willing to help in an emergency. Couldn’t you just push them out of the way or jump over them?
nkrisc 3y ago
> A couch and a fire and that couch can't be pushed over or jumped over... You’re 85.
- porkbeer 3y ago
  Or maybe they have small children. Wtf man.

kdmccormick 3y ago

> I can’t control if my neighbor blocks the stairwell with a couch that gets stuck while he’s moving in and now I have no egress if my other neighbor starts a fire. That is an extremely specific situation! > How is double stair MFH overzealous? There is a cost to every regulation. The cost to this one is that housing is more expensive for all Americans. Stress, poverty, and homelessness all lead to negative health outcomes. Taken as a whole, those negative outcomes may very well outweigh the fire safety benefits of double-stair (which have never been proven to exist). > I’m in favor of greater freedoms, and the freedom to choose a single stair MFH if I want. > But I don’t want. Right, so it sounds like you are in favor of removing the double-stair regulation?

hammock 3y ago
>That is an extremely specific situation! It’s an example. Can you generalize it or should I?
- kelseyfrog 3y ago
  Here's a hypothetical for a two-stairwell building: two couches. We can avoid this dangerous scenario with a three-stairwell minimum requirement.
  - hammock 3y ago
    Good point. Why do we even bother with two-lane roads and a double yellow line? Such a waste of space. Very contrived to presume there is always a car coming the other way
    - kelseyfrog 3y ago
      Sorry, but the only thing that will change my mind is a significantly casualty different between single stairwell and dual-stairwell buildings accounting for building age, construction type, property value, and occupant demographics. Happy to hear evidence-based arguments.
    - 3y ago

TaylorAlexander 3y ago

> How is double stair MFH overzealous? I suggest reading the article, which is intended to answer this question in depth. It provides concrete examples!

hammock 3y ago
As a safety measure, it doesn’t, unless I missed something. In fact it says there has been barely any analysis

amarshall 3y ago

The couch goes in the elevator, not the stairwell.

Klaster_1 3y ago

Check out this video, which argues against double stair MFH - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRdwXQb7CfM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRdwXQb7CfM.

cheriot 3y ago

We should require two stairs for single family housing as well. The elderly and disabled will also need to get furniture up stairs. Not to mention that the housing shortage forces more people to share a house with strangers.

shiroiuma 3y ago
>Not to mention that the housing shortage forces more people to share a house with strangers. Or, you could just build more housing... And stop insisting on so much living space while you're at it. Here in Tokyo, no one lives with strangers, even if they get minimum wage. They can still afford an apartment by themselves, though it'll be a very small apartment that's certainly illegal to build in America.
- cheriot 3y ago
  I agree. That was an attempt at reductio ad absurdum.

Paradigma11 3y ago

That doesnt help you because another neighbor is moving out and blocking the second staircase with another couch. This is the reason why you should have three staircases and only two neighbors. Though a problem arises if a neighbor is able to block a staircase and start a fire at the same time. That has to be checked beforehand.