4 ms·

>US housing stock is also much more wooden and therefore at higher risk to begin with. Fire compromising the structure of a building, or the structure itself b

>US housing stock is also much more wooden and therefore at higher risk to begin with. Fire compromising the structure of a building, or the structure itself burning is almost never the cause of death or injury. The primary killer in structure fires is hydrogen cyanide gas. Wood does emit hydrogen cyanide but the primary source is synthetic materials like upholstered furniture, wall and floor coverings, cabinetry, and other personal belongings. If you have two houses, one made of gypsum-covered 2x4 walls and the other made of stone and steel and a faulty space heater ignites a sofa or some polyester curtains, the buildings are equally lethal. The hydrogen cyanide will have killed you long before the fire burned through the drywall. Non-flammable walls don't even necessarily slow a fire's spread if synthetic materials are involved. The high heat of by their combustion and their dirty combustion causes flashover which ignites all flammable materials in a given space. I have been a volunteer firefighter for almost 20 years. I have experienced too many fatalities but none of them have ever burned to death. All victims have been dead due to asphyxiation (CO/CO2) or cyanide poisoning. The differences in death rates aren't as stark as the author contends (for example 0.2 deaths per fire in Great Britain, 0.3 in the US) and my gut tells me the main differentiation between the US and European deaths is the smaller, more compartmentalized nature of European dwellings (which limits the spread of smoke) coupled with their greater level of urbanization which leads to faster emergency services response (the faster a fire is knocked down the less gas it produces). Open floorplans kill. All of that being said, wooden construction does cause more firefighter deaths-- especially if engineered wood is used. But by the time the floor of a house has been weakened enough by a basement fire to fail and kill a firefighter, all of the occupants are already dead.

thatfrenchguy 3y ago
> and the other made of stone and steel Not to mention european houses also have drywall over the concrete these days, the days of barren concrete or plaster over concrete have been over since at least the 90s.
- abraxas 3y ago
  I've never been to a European house that has drywall over concrete or brick. The only time I see drywall used there is in finished attic areas to cover slanted roof rafters.
  - atombender 3y ago
    Very common here in Norway, at least. Drywall isn't just to create solid surfaces between structural timber, it also helps dampen sound and provide a flat surface for paint. A poured concrete wall is very rough and would require plastering to get a flat, smooth surface, which is more labor-intensive than just drywalling.
steveBK123 3y ago
What are your thoughts on sprinklers in these types of situations? Are they mostly to give people enough time to get out? Do you feel the safety reduction of moving to single stair is offset by requiring sprinkling? The way I have seen the idea of single-stair multifamily proposed in US was that in areas where zoning requires sprinklers in multifamily dwellings anyway, all the extra hallway space required for the second stairway is an unnecessary burden cost wise for little marginal safety.
- snakeyjake 3y ago
  There are many types of fires that can be extinguished by sprinklers but their primary function is to give occupants more time to escape. A common type of fire that has emerged recently is lithium ion battery fires. Some jurisdictions have so many it is an epidemic. Sprinklers do nothing to combat lithium iron battery fires, other than slowing the growth of secondary fires. Honestly I don't think secondary exits should be required for small, low-occupancy buildings (that's a problem we solved with fire escapes but they're "ugly") but at the same time I don't think eliminating them would solve any accommodation availability problems. For example, in the floor plan included in the article, eliminating the secondary egress staircase would add less than 140 square feet (varies by jurisdiction/occupancy but that floor plan looks like 48" wide stairs with 8 12" treads and a 48"*96" landing on each end) to the floor. In the article itself the author (rightly) asserts that adding a single bedroom to the design in a size acceptable to the market requires approximately 180 additional square feet. So all you'd get are bigger bedrooms and/or closets, or the addition of a single tiny bedroom. Indeed, in the example given in the article it would be almost impossible to add an additional bedroom. But one or both of the apartments could be given palatial bathrooms...

thatfrenchguy 3y ago

> and the other made of stone and steel Not to mention european houses also have drywall over the concrete these days, the days of barren concrete or plaster over concrete have been over since at least the 90s.

abraxas 3y ago
I've never been to a European house that has drywall over concrete or brick. The only time I see drywall used there is in finished attic areas to cover slanted roof rafters.
- atombender 3y ago
  Very common here in Norway, at least. Drywall isn't just to create solid surfaces between structural timber, it also helps dampen sound and provide a flat surface for paint. A poured concrete wall is very rough and would require plastering to get a flat, smooth surface, which is more labor-intensive than just drywalling.

steveBK123 3y ago

What are your thoughts on sprinklers in these types of situations? Are they mostly to give people enough time to get out? Do you feel the safety reduction of moving to single stair is offset by requiring sprinkling? The way I have seen the idea of single-stair multifamily proposed in US was that in areas where zoning requires sprinklers in multifamily dwellings anyway, all the extra hallway space required for the second stairway is an unnecessary burden cost wise for little marginal safety.

snakeyjake 3y ago
There are many types of fires that can be extinguished by sprinklers but their primary function is to give occupants more time to escape. A common type of fire that has emerged recently is lithium ion battery fires. Some jurisdictions have so many it is an epidemic. Sprinklers do nothing to combat lithium iron battery fires, other than slowing the growth of secondary fires. Honestly I don't think secondary exits should be required for small, low-occupancy buildings (that's a problem we solved with fire escapes but they're "ugly") but at the same time I don't think eliminating them would solve any accommodation availability problems. For example, in the floor plan included in the article, eliminating the secondary egress staircase would add less than 140 square feet (varies by jurisdiction/occupancy but that floor plan looks like 48" wide stairs with 8 12" treads and a 48"*96" landing on each end) to the floor. In the article itself the author (rightly) asserts that adding a single bedroom to the design in a size acceptable to the market requires approximately 180 additional square feet. So all you'd get are bigger bedrooms and/or closets, or the addition of a single tiny bedroom. Indeed, in the example given in the article it would be almost impossible to add an additional bedroom. But one or both of the apartments could be given palatial bathrooms...