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I think the point is that the tax is a double-standard. Apple can inherently exploit more competitive tactics by offering a first-party option that is financial

I think the point is that the tax is a double-standard. Apple can inherently exploit more competitive tactics by offering a first-party option that is financially infeasible to resist. Spotify isn't squeaky-clean either, but their argument is sound. Not only can Apple grant themselves private API entitlements (a literal competitive advantage), but competitors cannot offer a cheaper alternative even if they wanted. It's a situation where ad-ridden platforms like YouTube and TikTok are rewarded and legitimate licensed competitors can barely justify a native iOS app.

scarface_74 3y ago
What private API entitlements does Apple take advantage of that affects Spotify? It took Spotify over a year to implement streaming over cellular Apple Watches after it was introduced with a four month lead time when it was in public beta
- smoldesu 3y ago
  It's no surprise they'd drag their feet on investing in a platform that actively prevents them from competing. You're describing a broken egg and asking why the chicken never hatched. > What private API entitlements does Apple take advantage of that affects Spotify? That's not what I said. Spotify is arguing that Apple has double-standards, and I'm using the existence of API entitlements to back them up. It's an ironclad example that Apple does have conflicting interests whether they want them or not. Apple claims those double-standards help users, but I'm arguing that the promotion of special closed-door agreements and ad-supported platforms is preventing actual competitors from emerging.
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    > It's no surprise they'd drag their feet on investing in a platform that actively prevents them from competing. You're describing a broken egg and asking why the chicken never hatched. Did people who were interested in being able to run with just an Apple Watch choose not to buy an Apple Watch or choose to switch to Apple Music? How did they think this was going to hurt Apple and not themselves? > That's not what I said. Spotify is arguing that Apple has double-standards, and I'm using the existence of API entitlements to back them up Of course the OS vendor is never going to allow every app the same level of access to the hardware that they have. Do you want every application to have root access? How has Apple having “private entitlements” hurt their competitors when it comes to books (where Kindle is more popular), streaming video (AppleTV+ vs Netflix - really? ), streaming music (Spotify still has more market share on iOS I believe), podcasts (I use Overcast). Third parties can manipulate the photo library. The two exceptions I can think of are adding music to the music library directly on the phone and installing apps.
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      > Do you want every application to have root access? No application should have root access. If Apple is giving their competitive apps root-equivalent permissions then I would say that's an even larger scandal. > How has Apple having “private entitlements” hurt their competitors [...] By creating yet another gate where they are exempt from the rules. > The two exceptions I can think of With all due respect, if there are exceptions you can think of then I think the situation is flawed. There's also the browser engine dispute, iMessage's neverending hermitage, and Apple's gradual depreciation of cross-platform libraries. We can argue that there's some merit to all of those behaviors, but together they represent a coordinated anticompetitive strategy. If Apple can't isolate their hardware ambitions from their software ones, I feel like this will end with a judge threatening to break Apple into two companies a-la United States v. Microsoft Corp.
      - scarface_74 3y ago
        > By creating yet another gate where they are exempt from the rules. You still haven’t given one example of where Apple has a competing service that puts them at an advantage over competitors based on private entitlements? > iMessage's neverending hermitage What can iMessage do that a competing messaging app can’t do? > Apple's gradual depreciation of cross-platform libraries How is not supporting a cross platform library given Apple a competitive advantage? Game developers use cross platform engines that abstract the difference and there have been cross platform web based cross platform SDKs forever like React Native. > If Apple can't isolate their hardware ambitions from their software ones, I feel like this will end with a judge threatening to break Apple into two companies a-la United States v. Microsoft Corp. Back then Microsoft was the most valuable and today…MS is the most valuable company. How did that work out? Apple has literally been an integrated software/hardware company for almost 50 years
        smoldesu 3y ago
        > You still haven’t given one example of where Apple has a competing service that puts them at an advantage over competitors based on private entitlements? Apple Maps, Apple Health, Apple Music (as you mentioned) the App Store, Siri, Safari and Password Manager all come to mind. > What can iMessage do that a competing messaging app can’t do? Functionally replace SMS. Apple knows they should have replaced SMS using a consortium of some sort, but they took advantage of the situation and bundled instead. Now SMS is a derilect mess, the alternatives are just as greedy as iMessage and nobody wants to work together. > How is not supporting a cross platform library given Apple a competitive advantage? It's part of a continued, overt and obvious strategy to stop cross-platform developers from porting their code to Mac. > Game developers use cross platform engines ...which is probably why MacOS doesn't have any games to speak of, innit? > Back then Microsoft was the most valuable and today…MS is the most valuable company. > Apple has literally been an integrated software/hardware company for almost 50 years What is your point?

scarface_74 3y ago

What private API entitlements does Apple take advantage of that affects Spotify? It took Spotify over a year to implement streaming over cellular Apple Watches after it was introduced with a four month lead time when it was in public beta

smoldesu 3y ago
It's no surprise they'd drag their feet on investing in a platform that actively prevents them from competing. You're describing a broken egg and asking why the chicken never hatched. > What private API entitlements does Apple take advantage of that affects Spotify? That's not what I said. Spotify is arguing that Apple has double-standards, and I'm using the existence of API entitlements to back them up. It's an ironclad example that Apple does have conflicting interests whether they want them or not. Apple claims those double-standards help users, but I'm arguing that the promotion of special closed-door agreements and ad-supported platforms is preventing actual competitors from emerging.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  > It's no surprise they'd drag their feet on investing in a platform that actively prevents them from competing. You're describing a broken egg and asking why the chicken never hatched. Did people who were interested in being able to run with just an Apple Watch choose not to buy an Apple Watch or choose to switch to Apple Music? How did they think this was going to hurt Apple and not themselves? > That's not what I said. Spotify is arguing that Apple has double-standards, and I'm using the existence of API entitlements to back them up Of course the OS vendor is never going to allow every app the same level of access to the hardware that they have. Do you want every application to have root access? How has Apple having “private entitlements” hurt their competitors when it comes to books (where Kindle is more popular), streaming video (AppleTV+ vs Netflix - really? ), streaming music (Spotify still has more market share on iOS I believe), podcasts (I use Overcast). Third parties can manipulate the photo library. The two exceptions I can think of are adding music to the music library directly on the phone and installing apps.
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    > Do you want every application to have root access? No application should have root access. If Apple is giving their competitive apps root-equivalent permissions then I would say that's an even larger scandal. > How has Apple having “private entitlements” hurt their competitors [...] By creating yet another gate where they are exempt from the rules. > The two exceptions I can think of With all due respect, if there are exceptions you can think of then I think the situation is flawed. There's also the browser engine dispute, iMessage's neverending hermitage, and Apple's gradual depreciation of cross-platform libraries. We can argue that there's some merit to all of those behaviors, but together they represent a coordinated anticompetitive strategy. If Apple can't isolate their hardware ambitions from their software ones, I feel like this will end with a judge threatening to break Apple into two companies a-la United States v. Microsoft Corp.
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      > By creating yet another gate where they are exempt from the rules. You still haven’t given one example of where Apple has a competing service that puts them at an advantage over competitors based on private entitlements? > iMessage's neverending hermitage What can iMessage do that a competing messaging app can’t do? > Apple's gradual depreciation of cross-platform libraries How is not supporting a cross platform library given Apple a competitive advantage? Game developers use cross platform engines that abstract the difference and there have been cross platform web based cross platform SDKs forever like React Native. > If Apple can't isolate their hardware ambitions from their software ones, I feel like this will end with a judge threatening to break Apple into two companies a-la United States v. Microsoft Corp. Back then Microsoft was the most valuable and today…MS is the most valuable company. How did that work out? Apple has literally been an integrated software/hardware company for almost 50 years
      - smoldesu 3y ago
        > You still haven’t given one example of where Apple has a competing service that puts them at an advantage over competitors based on private entitlements? Apple Maps, Apple Health, Apple Music (as you mentioned) the App Store, Siri, Safari and Password Manager all come to mind. > What can iMessage do that a competing messaging app can’t do? Functionally replace SMS. Apple knows they should have replaced SMS using a consortium of some sort, but they took advantage of the situation and bundled instead. Now SMS is a derilect mess, the alternatives are just as greedy as iMessage and nobody wants to work together. > How is not supporting a cross platform library given Apple a competitive advantage? It's part of a continued, overt and obvious strategy to stop cross-platform developers from porting their code to Mac. > Game developers use cross platform engines ...which is probably why MacOS doesn't have any games to speak of, innit? > Back then Microsoft was the most valuable and today…MS is the most valuable company. > Apple has literally been an integrated software/hardware company for almost 50 years What is your point?